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Folklore: Pewter Tankards

Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jun 08 - 02:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 16 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 16 Jun 08 - 03:56 PM
Marje 16 Jun 08 - 04:27 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster 16 Jun 08 - 05:59 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 16 Jun 08 - 06:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jun 08 - 07:02 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 16 Jun 08 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,aeola 16 Jun 08 - 07:17 PM
The Fooles Troupe 16 Jun 08 - 07:45 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jun 08 - 08:29 PM
GUEST,meself 16 Jun 08 - 09:13 PM
Seamus Kennedy 17 Jun 08 - 01:50 AM
glueman 17 Jun 08 - 02:41 AM
lady penelope 17 Jun 08 - 05:08 AM
Paul Burke 17 Jun 08 - 05:19 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 09:30 AM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 09:39 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 09:41 AM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 09:45 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 09:55 AM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 10:08 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 10:09 AM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 10:10 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 10:12 AM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 10:24 AM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 10:25 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 10:41 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 10:42 AM
lady penelope 17 Jun 08 - 10:45 AM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 10:48 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 10:50 AM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 10:53 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 10:54 AM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 11:02 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster 17 Jun 08 - 11:25 AM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 11:35 AM
Banjiman 17 Jun 08 - 11:38 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 11:43 AM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 12:05 PM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 12:15 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jun 08 - 12:25 PM
GUEST, TJ in San Diego 17 Jun 08 - 12:33 PM
Silas 17 Jun 08 - 12:34 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jun 08 - 12:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:24 PM

Whisky by the gill- make that two! And a tankard of ale with that
(partial tosspot and full-time snob).
The Bodleian has a song sheet, "A Tankard of Ale," but it doesn't display.
Harding B 25(1882), printed by Batchelar, London, bet. 1817-1828.
"Not yet drunk nor yet sober, but brother to both ..."
Does anyone have all the words?

It does not seem to be in the songbook, "A Tankard of Ale," comp. Theodore Maynard, c. 1919; online at Tankard of Ale

Tankards used by pubs to serve customers (pre-present decadent times) were stamped by inspectors, showing that they contained proper volume. The line on modern glasses is supposed to do the same, but no guarantees except the word of the server.

Not sure of British barbershop protocol, but pre-WW1, clients of American-Canadian barbers has their own exclusive shaving mug, and often badger brush, which the barber kept on a rack in his shop.

In pubs, there is only the server's word that the glass, used by many customers until it is broken, has been properly cleaned
between each use. Who knows, glue might have adhered! A personal tankard, on the other hand, is just that.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM

Tankard of Ale website- I may have erred-
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/tankard-ale/


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Subject: Lyr. Add: Tosse the Pot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

Lyr. Add: TOSSE THE POT
Thomas Ravenscroft (1592-1635)

Tosse the pot, tosse the pot, let us be merry,
And drink till our cheeks be red as a cherry.
We take no thought, we have no care,
For still we spend and never spare,
Till of all our money our purse is bare,
We ever tosse the pot.

Chorus-
Tosse the pot, tosse the pot, etc.

We drink, carous with hart most free,
A harty draught I drinke to thee;
Then fill the pot again to me,
And ever tosse the pot.

Chorus

And when our money is all spent,
Then sell our goods and spend our rent,
Or drinke it up with one consent,
And ever toss the pot.

Chorus

When all is gone we have no more,
Then let us set it on the score,
Or chalk it up behinde the dore,
And ever tosse the pot.

Chorus

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/tankard-ale/


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM

"Note: commercial beer/beverage cans, at least here, are copiously lined with "lacquer" so that there is no metal contact with the contents"

Not exactly "lacquer", which most people associate as "varnish" - something you coat woodwork with.   There is a lining in cans, plastic based, and you cannot taste the metal - unless you drink from the can.

"The difference here is that our beer is real living product - it is not a chemical product like american 'beers' it does not react with the pewter like your stuff does. "
What horseshit are the feeding you across the pond? We have "live" beers just like you, and we have bottled and pasteurized beer, just like you. Ale and lagers are types of beer. Whatever type of beer you have will react with metal. Don't kid yourself. CAMRA, while doing great work, has obviously warped the sense of reality across the pond.

"Beer is declining in popularity and a close association with it does the folk scene no good at all. "
So in essence, you are saying that you really need to have half a bag on to enjoy English folk music.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:56 PM

It is true, deservedly, that the only brewery category that seems to be trending upward in the states is that of the microbrewery. In a strange way, they represent a return to basics and away from "factory beers" that are essentially flavorless (pissvasser, according to my German friends).

Noting that, this thread could (has) deteriorate(d) to the point of taking on the Campaign for Real Ale. On that note, I hereby commit my flagon of Samuel Smith Old Brewery Taddy Porter to the gullet. Cheers. Of course, I never drink on duty...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Marje
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:27 PM

"Beer is declining in popularity and a close association with it does the folk scene no good at all. "

So, Jack, are you suggesting that we folkies ought to start updating our image just to prove how young and trendy we are? Should we all drink the massively advertised lagers like the young people do? Maybe we should wear more sports gear - you know, tracksuit pants, football shirts, that sort of thing, and perhaps mini-skirts and stilettos for the ladies? And we really must encourage more folkies to smoke, it's so cool!

Me, I'm proud to have a "close association" with real ale which, like our music, is one of the treasures of our culture. I'll ditch the patchwork trousers if you like, and maybe even leave my copper tankard at home, but St Austell, Skinners and Dartmoor Breweries and many others like them can continue to count on my custom.

Marje


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

Big Rock Brewery, Calgary, Canada, produces products with no additives, no preservatives and no pasteurization.

Only the best two-row malt barley is used. Their yeast strains have been selected after long trial and error, and are a carefully guarded secret. Hops from Kent, Czech Republic, Bavaria, and Yakima Valley are used, selected for the brew. Calgary water is essentially glacier water, high in carbonates because of the grinding action of the glacier on the limestone rock at the source.

Recommended are pork ribs prepared using Warthog Ale.
Recipes:
http://www.bigrockbeer.com/kitchen-recipes.htm#


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:59 PM

I'll ditch the patchwork trousers if you like

See, I told you all it was the trousers not the beer that was the problem!

By the by and for the record, I've had some stunningly good U.S. microbrews when I've been over. Almost as good as the best of our real ale and far better than the worst of it.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:39 PM

"Almost as good as the best of our real ale"

We have "real ale" too, and yours is almost as good too.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:02 PM

I should have added to my praise for Big Rock Brewery in Calgary that there are many good small breweries in the U. S., that produce excellent beers and ales. And stouts, too!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:14 PM

beer=ale
ale=beer
lager=beer
beer=lager


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,aeola
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:17 PM

Fascinating, who would have thought that Tankards would promote such comment.I had a pewter tankard long before I became a folkie and always thought I was being clever because only I drank out of it. As for the comments about the virtues of ale from each side of the pond I learnt that there was no bad ale, just that some was better than others!!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:45 PM

Ales are top fermented.
Lagers are bottom fermented at a cooler temperture.

The yeasts are different animals.

I used to do a mean bottom feremented cider in the fridge (5 deg C many months - then it would restart when brought back to room temp!) - used to make a glow all the way down... :-)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:29 PM

Foolstroupe is correct, the yeasts are entirely different. Ale is not beer and v. v.
Stout is an ale, but dark roasted malts are used.

Lager and Pilsen lager are both beer, but the flavor may be very different. A good pilsen is made with Saaz hops (from Czech Republic).

I haven't had a good cider for years. In Illinois, we would get gallon jugs of untreated cider from the University farm and slow ferment it. If it went too far, it became vinegary in taste, but it rarely was permitted to reach that stage.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:13 PM

She: "I'll ditch the patchwork trousers if you like"

He: (To himself) Ah! The ale is having the desired effect! (To her) Certainly, my dear - let me take that tankard off your hands ... Perhaps you'd like to put on this interesting pair of trousers [See Post #16 Jun 08 - 06:59 AM - ed.] - everyone's wearing them in San Francisco!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:50 AM

Jack Campin -
not to be picky, but I think "A Bottle Of The Best" is Scotch Whisky-related, although beer is mentioned.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: glueman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:41 AM

This debate isn't about beer, it's about tankards. The Whimsey collection, the cuddly toys on an adult bed, the death of imagination, the fin de siecle of Folk. And we say why don't they like us? What's wrong with the music? Then reach for our pewter gewgaws and spill the stuff on our patchwork trousers, certain of nothing but our certainty.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: lady penelope
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:08 AM

Wow, that's meep and deanignful....

BTW anything that's brewed with yeast can be referred to as 'beer', cider and wine included.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:19 AM

Fine bit of folklore, that thing about glass bottoms and the King's Shilling. I think it's a bit more practical: with a glass bottom you can see if the beer is cloudy.

I once had a smooth, nickel plated tankard. The beer went flat in about 5 minutes, not just lost its head but it's entire condition, and tasted like drip tray slops. Any physical chemists with views on the bubble- forming activity of nickel?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:30 AM

"The yeasts are different animals."

Absolutely, and there are different types of yeast used for different types of ales and different types of lagers. They are all beers.   The beer will react with a metal tankard unless there is some sort of coating on the metal.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:39 AM

"BTW anything that's brewed with yeast can be referred to as 'beer', cider and wine included."

Well...........anything can be referred to as anything, if you like, does not mean that it is correct.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:41 AM

You can bake, grill, smoke, fry or broil a chicken and it is still chicken. You can use bottom or top fermenting yeast, and it is still beer.

Lager and ale are beers. You can refer to it as any other way you like, that does not meant it correct.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:45 AM

"You can bake, grill, smoke, fry or broil a chicken and it is still chicken. You can use bottom or top fermenting yeast, and it is still beer.

Lager and ale are beers. You can refer to it as any other way you like, that does not meant it correct."

You can also bake grill etc pheasant, snipe, partridge etc, but it does not make them chicken - you are welcome to refer to them as chicken though, but it does not make it correct.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:55 AM

Why would anyone call a pheasant a chicken?

You are confusing the issue Silas.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:08 AM

Why would anyone call Irish stout lager?

You seem to think the terms are interchangeable - they are not.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:09 AM

No, lager is not a stout. Lager, stout, ale are all types of beer.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:10 AM

"beer=ale
ale=beer
lager=beer
beer=lager"

Perhaps you would like to amend the above then?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:12 AM

No, it is fine. Beer is the catagory.   Ale and lager are subcatagories of beer.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:24 AM

Well its not fine. I think what you are trying to say is that all ales and largers are beer, but not all beer is ale or lager.

Over here beer, ale and lager are different things. We don't see any american 'Ales' for obvious reasons and most of us think of american 'beer' as budwieser or miller.

Our 'Ales' are, generally, living beers, though there are many different types - including both bottled condituioned ale and 'sterile' bottled ales. There are bitters, milds, stouts and god knows what else.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:25 AM

Anyway - who cares? Long as it tastes good!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:41 AM

"I think what you are trying to say is that all ales and largers are beer, but not all beer is ale or lager."

I'm trying to comprehend what you are accusing me of saying. Your sentence is a bit confusing.

It is very simple. All ales and lagers are types of Beer.   Period. There are numerous variations of ales and lagers. Stout is technically an ale. There are also lambics which are

I understand that the UK has a unique way of referring to ale and beer, but you are unique in that regard - probably vicitms of ad campaigns.

Beer is created by the fermentation of sugars from starch sources - typically barley.   (Cider and wine are not created from starch sources and they are not part of the beer family.)

"Real" ale that you are so fond of is also a misnomer. It is actually cask conditioned ale - which is an historic vessel for conditioning beer through the ages, but copper and other elements have also been used.

The "real" ale that you are fond of is also lower in alcohol content - generally about 4%. It is typically referred to as "session" beers because the lower alcohol content and fuller body enable easier consumption over the long haul.

Lager is typically higher in alcohol - about 5%. The bottom fermenting yeast gives it a "cleaner" process - which is why people think of it as being thin. Because it has less body, you drink more - and because of the higher alcohol you get drunk faster. That is generally one of the reasons why it is so popular among the youth.

Don't get me wrong - I love ale and I think the UK produces some fine beer. But you need to understand that what you are being served is just a small portion of the world of beer. Cask conditioned ale is available in the U.S. - but is is a much smaller market than what you have in the UK. That does not mean the product is less desireable.

Historically, beer does not travel well. Lagering and pasteurization - and the bottling process, enabled changes.   Still, it rare that you would sample microbrews outside of the U.S. because of the conditions.

Beer is ale and lager. Period.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:42 AM

oops... I missed a sentence. Lambics are open fermented, meaning it uses natural air born yeasts that are present all around us. The Belgians brew an amazing style because of the yeasts that are present in that particular region.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: lady penelope
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:45 AM

Actually, the word beer has been historically used for all fermented beverages. When referring to medieval texts for brewing and other recipes it can take a while to sort out what drink they're referring to.

Beer was only legally referred to as a fermented beverage flavoured with hops as recently as the 18 century, when in Britain it became illegal to make it from anything else.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beer

Main Entry: beer
Pronunciation: \ˈbir\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ber, from Old English bēor; akin to Old High German bior beer
Date: before 12th century
1 : an alcoholic beverage usually made from malted cereal grain (as barley), flavored with hops, and brewed by slow fermentation
2 : a carbonated nonalcoholic or a fermented slightly alcoholic beverage with flavoring from roots or other plant parts
3 : fermented mash
4 : a drink of beer


http://www.answers.com/topic/beer
        
a.A fermented alcoholic beverage brewed from malt and flavored with hops.
b.A fermented beverage brewed by traditional methods that is then dealcoholized so that the finished product contains no more than 0.5 percent alcohol.
c.A carbonated beverage produced by a method in which the fermentation process is either circumvented or altered, resulting in a finished product having an alcohol content of no more than 0.01 percent.
2.A beverage made from extracts of roots and plants: birch beer.
3.A serving of one of these beverages.
[Middle English ber, from Old English bēor, from West Germanic, probably from Latin bibere, to drink.]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/beer

beer   (bīr)
n.
1.
a. A fermented alcoholic beverage brewed from malt and flavored with hops.
b. A fermented beverage brewed by traditional methods that is then dealcoholized so that the finished product contains no more than 0.5 percent alcohol.
c. A carbonated beverage produced by a method in which the fermentation process is either circumvented or altered, resulting in a finished product having an alcohol content of no more than 0.01 percent.
2. A beverage made from extracts of roots and plants: birch beer.
3. A serving of one of these beverages.

[Middle English ber, from Old English b or, from West Germanic, probably from Latin bibere, to drink; see p (i)- in Indo-European roots.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:48 AM

"probably vicitms of ad campaigns" ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????EH?


You are joking - right?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:50 AM

Not in the least. Your own posts show that you have perceptions about beer that are entirely wrong. Obviously you have been influenced by ad campaigns that are giving you that wrong information.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:53 AM

"Not in the least. Your own posts show that you have perceptions about beer that are entirely wrong. Obviously you have been influenced by ad campaigns that are giving you that wrong information"


This would be very, very funny if I thought for one second that you were being serious.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:54 AM

Joke all you wish Silas, but your own words prove my point.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:02 AM

I must say that I do find it somewhat strange to be told by an American that we are overly influenced by advertising campaigns when American culture seems to be entirely made up of advertising froth.

Facinating concept.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:24 AM

I find it interesting that a British citizen would feel that they are above influence by advertising campaigns.   I also find it interesting that you feel you know all about our culture because of whatever advertisements you are seeing. Fascinating concept.

When someone makes a statement such as "We don't see any american 'Ales' for obvious reasons and most of us think of american 'beer' as budwieser or miller" - you are openly admitting that your opinion is based solely on limited exposure and lack of knowledge of the entire story.   When you use the phrase "for obvious reasons" - they might be obvious to your small view of the world, but they are not obvious to the rest of us that share the planet.

CAMRA did a wonderful and noble job of resurrecting a beer style and saving your country from your own versions of Budweiser and Miller. Unfortunately, it appears by your own statements, that your education has been limited to what you have been exposed to.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:25 AM

What about the tankards? What about the TROUSERS!!?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:35 AM

"For obvious reasons" means that it is unlikeley that a cask conditioned ale would travel all that well across your continent and the atlantic ocean and still be drinkable - obvious really.

The exposure we have to American 'beers' are via the god awful tv programms that are inflicted upon us where I have yet to see anyone drinking proper 'beer' and the much hyped aformentioned products. So lack of awareness of your range of produce I would admit to, though it is refreshing to learn that you do have a range of 'real ales'.

We in Britain are not above beening taken in by slick advertsing, but you will, I think, admit that America is the home of this sort of thing, and why not, we should all be good at something.

Now, back to Tankards. ( and trousers)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:38 AM

I think I might start a festival called "What about the tankards? What about the TROUSERS!!?".

Made me laugh in the context of the heat being generated above.

Thanks ESAM


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:43 AM

"drinking proper 'beer' "

That speaks volumes. You are imposing limitations on what constitutes "proper". It is wonderful that you enjoy your "real ale", but that does not make it the only beer that is "proper".

The godawful shows that are inflicted on you are purchased by your own broadcasters, so I would make your complaints known to them. It is very true that the major advertisers are the beers that you detest, and obviously has clouded your view of the world. That is a shame and I wish you luck in improving your conditions.

Don't make assumptions based on what you see on your television. Get out more and search out some different styles of beer!   You might enjoy it! If you ever get to this side of the pond, I would love to take you out for a few pint samples of what we offer.

Incidently, while I do not care for Budweiser either, it is actually a very good example of the style - and it is great for catching slugs in the garden.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM

Maybe a language thing here. Everyone over here knows what 'proper' beer is, I was not imposing limitations, it is just the way it is.

I have made my complaints about tv programmes known, and much good it has done!

Whilst I genuinly appreciate your kind offer, I have to say that America is probably the last place on earth that I would wish to visit. I would, however, extend the same invitation to yourself should you get the opportunity to visit the UK. I would be able to show you the best and also the worst of beers here.

Don't forget to bring your tankard though!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:05 PM

Silas - I appreciate your offer, and I don't blame you for not wanting to visit the U.S.   In recent years, our government has not made it easy or desirable for people to travel here - and that is a real shame. Hopefully that will change soon.

I hope my comments were not taken as a slap at British beers. I think your ales are wonderful, and the few cask conditioned ales that I've had the opportunity to sample were very good.

It is a language difference. I think I understand what you mean by "proper" beer, but I hope you understand my point that the world of beer has much more to offer. What I am reading from comments are that choices have been limited. It would be like living in certain regions and only drinking the wine produced in that area.   Beer is very complex.   For wine, you throw some grapes in a vessel and sit back until it is ready.   With beer, the process is quite complex and the variety and styles are much wider. There are more "notes" in the tasting of beer then there are in wines.

Sorry if I've gone off on a tangent, but when I hear words being used that might be correct regionally but incorrect in the global application, I feel a need to speak up.   Don't judge us by Budweiser and I won't judge you on your Watney's Red Barrel!

By the way - a plastic tankard would be preferable to a pitch-lined leather or a pewter tankard. Taste the beer, not the vessel.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:15 PM

Actually, you can't get Watneys Red Barrel in the UK - you CAN get it in Spain though (or at least so I am told)

You may think that we have some exclusive tastes here in the uk, with a fient scorn for anything that is not a British real ale.

Well, I have to tell you that for some of us, me in particular, just being a British ale is far from good enough. As far as I am concerned and this does go for quite a lot of us, if its not brewed in Burton (Burton upon Trent - Staffordshire) then its not proper ale anyway!!

Its known as a 'Burton Palate' and is something of an aquired taste, but well worth striving for.

Cheers - now, where's me tankard?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:25 PM

Burton Ale yeast is very popular among home brewers. I've used it and loved it. It imparts a slightly fruity taste and is very complex.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST, TJ in San Diego
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:33 PM

I spent more than thirty years in the food and beverage business, mostly in sales and marketing, with some importing thrown in. I learned to love the special beverages of countries I visited and the foods that went with them. A lot of us, in the states, have been rebelling against pasturized, homogenized and thoroughly forgettable mass market products for some time. The result is an explosion of microbreweries, fine wines from an increasing number of states, along with fine cheeses, exotic produce and the like. I have never tried to directly compare, say, German, French, Belgian or British beers or ales to ours. I simply enjoy what I like, wherever it is made. I do applaud the concept of a Campaign for Real Ale simply because it seeks quality, not mass market. Now, back to the music:

How many songs are based on these beverages; praising them, rather than simply celebrating or lamenting inebriation?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:34 PM

Now, here is a little true story.

Many years ago when I was young and stupid (as opposed to now, when I am old and stupid) I used to brew my own ale. Having heard that Burton ales were so good because of their water, I decided to take a trip to Burton with some large plasic containers and a length of hosepipe to grab a few gallons of the precious stuff and make some good brew.

The only place I could find to get my water was a public toilet, but never mind - it was still the stuff I wanted. Having stolen some 15 gallons of water I went off home to start my brew. I was horribly dissapointed to find in the end that it tasted exactly the same as the stuff I usually made.

It turns out that the water I stole was exactly the same as my home tap water, the stuff that Bass and Marstons use comes from their own bore holes - not a Welsh reservoir like the tap water that we all drink.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:57 PM

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary specifically defines beer as "brewed by slow fermentation." The same dictionary defines ale as a beverage brewed by "rapid fermentation." Mr. Olesko obviously fails to recognize this distinction. I haven't consulted my OED, but I am sure that they make the same distinction, albeit in more elegant prose and with pertinent quotations.
I doubt that he has advanced beyond Budweiser, Miller's, Coors, Molsons, Kokanee or other mass-produced 'beer', although he tries to speak knowingly about the variety of fermented products available in the U. S. (there are many good lagers and ales made there, no excuses need to be made).

Silas, although I agree in general with your opinion on differences among brewed products and the correct modern interpretation of the word beer, there is no need for any English product of that kind in N. AM. since their small brewers produce products as good or better-- and what is this concern about trousers? For Queen's sake, go to your tailor and get measured for something more appropriate for wear in public).

Lady Penelope, thanks for the summary of the history of beer s. l. in England. Very interesting.

Old UK tankards and measures in pewter used by taverns were stamped by weights and measures inspectors to confirm that the container was of legal capacity. Information stamped, e. g., could be ER (Edward Rex, 1901-1910), with a crown, the measure (gill, pint, quart), and perhaps a number indicating the district. A line is shown on modern UK pub glasses, but no official verification stamps.


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