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Scarborough Fair

DigiTrad:
AN ACRE OF LAND
ELFIN KNIGHT 3
ELFIN KNIGHT 4
ELFIN KNIGHT 5
REDIO, TEDIO
SCARBOROUGH FAIR
SCARBOROUGH FAIR (2)
THE ELFIN KNIGHT
THE ELFIN KNIGHT 2
THE LAIRD O' ELFIN


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Scarborough Fair / Canticle (11)
(origins) Origins: Scarborough Fair / Robert Westall (27)
(origins) Scarborough Fair: uncorrupting the corruptible (26)
(origins) Origins: Scarborough Fair (46)
(origins) Origin: Scarborough Fair: earliest version? (40)
Lyr Req: The Cambric Shirt (Ritchie & Brand) (13)
Lyr Req: Scarborough Fair / Canticle (Simon & Garf (23)
(origins) lost verse, Scarborough Fair (25)
North Country/Scarborough Fair (9)
Lyr Req: An Acre of Land (29)


GUEST,henryp 17 Jun 15 - 02:50 AM
Mark Ross 16 Jun 15 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,henryp 16 Jun 15 - 06:53 AM
Lighter 09 May 15 - 07:18 PM
FreddyHeadey 09 May 15 - 07:05 PM
Lighter 08 May 15 - 08:39 AM
Lighter 08 May 15 - 08:35 AM
FreddyHeadey 07 May 15 - 09:30 PM
Lighter 07 May 15 - 08:11 PM
FreddyHeadey 07 May 15 - 05:34 PM
Lighter 07 May 15 - 12:39 PM
FreddyHeadey 07 May 15 - 11:06 AM
Lighter 07 May 15 - 09:32 AM
Mr Red 07 May 15 - 03:32 AM
Brian Peters 06 May 15 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 06 May 15 - 02:44 PM
FreddyHeadey 06 May 15 - 10:29 AM
Lighter 06 May 15 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 06 May 15 - 08:18 AM
Penny S. 06 May 15 - 08:18 AM
Jack Campin 06 May 15 - 07:16 AM
Lighter 06 May 15 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 06 May 15 - 06:31 AM
Betsy 05 May 15 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,Philippa 05 May 15 - 05:47 PM
MGM·Lion 30 May 11 - 02:51 AM
MGM·Lion 29 May 11 - 04:02 AM
MGM·Lion 29 May 11 - 03:28 AM
The Sandman 03 Jun 08 - 04:18 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Jun 08 - 03:30 PM
The Sandman 03 Jun 08 - 02:54 PM
BB 03 Jun 08 - 02:38 PM
The Sandman 30 May 08 - 12:30 PM
Folkiedave 30 May 08 - 09:54 AM
Mr Happy 30 May 08 - 08:38 AM
The Sandman 30 May 08 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Steve Gardham 27 May 08 - 04:39 PM
Jim Carroll 27 May 08 - 11:31 AM
The Sandman 27 May 08 - 10:25 AM
Jim Carroll 27 May 08 - 09:51 AM
The Sandman 27 May 08 - 08:50 AM
Jim Carroll 27 May 08 - 07:49 AM
Jack Campin 27 May 08 - 06:01 AM
The Sandman 27 May 08 - 05:53 AM
Jim Carroll 27 May 08 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Steve Gardham 26 May 08 - 06:51 PM
Jim Carroll 26 May 08 - 02:47 AM
Terry McDonald 25 May 08 - 05:07 PM
Jim Carroll 25 May 08 - 04:47 PM
The Sandman 25 May 08 - 04:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Jun 15 - 02:50 AM

There is an intriguing alternative - with Danny La Rue;

Rue, Presley, Rosemary and Thieme


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Mark Ross
Date: 16 Jun 15 - 02:12 PM

On a recently posted video of our old (and late lamented) friend Art Thieme, he says that he wanted to be back in 1953 to start the ultimate folk group; Elvis Presley, Patti Page, Rosemary Clooney, and himself. Presley, Page, Rosemary, and Thieme.

Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Jun 15 - 06:53 AM

Soul Music - Scarborough Fair will be repeated on BBC Radio 4 at 3.30pm on Saturday 20 June 2015.

"It can change or stay the same. And the more it changes, the more it stays the same" - Martin Carthy

With expert contribution from Sandra Kerr, musician and lecturer at Newcastle University School of Arts and Culture.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Lighter
Date: 09 May 15 - 07:18 PM

The DigiTrad tune is clearly a variant, but, no, it isn't quite MacColl's tune. It may have been altered by "oral tradition" since it began making the rounds in the '50s or '60s.

The tune MacColl sings on "Matching Songs" is that attributed in "The Singing Island" to Mark Anderson.

Except for barely audible differences, that is also the tune Coppard used.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 09 May 15 - 07:05 PM

?? I stand to be corrected but I think the tune on
http://mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5197 is different from the one on YouTube mentioned above
From: Lighter - Date: 07 May 15 - 08:11 PM
MacColl performs "Scarborough Fair" with Peggy Seeger in 1957:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9bpUK1Lx0k


Has someone uploaded a different track?


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Lighter
Date: 08 May 15 - 08:39 AM

Though no specific source is given, Coppard does place the song in "Yorkshire," home of Mark Anderson.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Lighter
Date: 08 May 15 - 08:35 AM

On "English Folk Songs" (Folkways FP 917), Audrey Coppard sings a version of the MacColl "Scarborough Fair" which she apparently learned directly from him. (The notes say she is "indebted" to Lloyd and MacColl for several of her songs.) No earlier source is mentioned.

Coppard's tune is identical to that in "The Singing Island," but for two or three trivial differences, but the after stanza one the text consists of the woman's challenges only and the lyrics are a bit different. The differences are, first, each stanza begins "Tell him to" rather than "O, will you"; second, the final couplet is:

When he has done these things without fail...
He can come and claim me for himself.

The ability to rhyme "fail" with "himself" is Scottish. Does it happen in Yorkshire too?

The album is copyright 1955. It suggests the likelihood that however MacColl's version may have originated, he added the man's lines in time for his 1957 recording linked above.

Here's an ultra-romantic recent performance by Hayley Westenra: surely Celtic Woman at their best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI_TV32jmHc


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 07 May 15 - 09:30 PM

Thanks Lighter
and I'd not heard
Peggy Seeger - Cambric Shirt before.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Lighter
Date: 07 May 15 - 08:11 PM

MacColl performs "Scarborough Fair" with Peggy Seeger in 1957:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9bpUK1Lx0k

Does anyone know what the liner notes said?


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:34 PM

Doesn't Peggy Seeger say that EM would often find a good tune then change one note at a time 'til he had a new one?

idk, yes, Cod Liver Oil is quite different but I like them together in an odd way.
I put the 4 combinations here
SF FLW / SF CLO / FLW CLO / SF + FLW + CLO

Scarborough Fair v Four Loom Weaver v Cod Liver Oil
I don't understand these things... to get them to play on the WindowsMediaPlayer it needed
a single click > download > open


Is there a better place to leave files than google.drive ?


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Lighter
Date: 07 May 15 - 12:39 PM

There are undeniable similarities between "SF" and "FLW." "Cod Liver Oil" sounds rather less closely related.

Lloyd used a version of that tune for "Paddy and the Whale."

But couldn't MacColl have created the "FLW" tune on the basis of an authentic "SF" rather than the other way round?

In any case, the inability of anyone to connect Anderson to the ballad before its appearance in "Singing Island" is curious.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 07 May 15 - 11:06 AM

? And Cod Liver Oil ?

I just played the three of them together as a midi and though there is some un/pleasant dissonance(is that the word?) they all fit together pretty well.
PM if you want to hear & don't want to tap it all in.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Lighter
Date: 07 May 15 - 09:32 AM

Thanks, Derek and Brian.

I have no access to that article.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 May 15 - 03:32 AM

From the singing of Jimmy Miller - to quote a well known Jimmy Miller?


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Brian Peters
Date: 06 May 15 - 05:21 PM

To save you the bother of following Derek's link, here's what I suggested a year and a half ago:

"It occurred to me recently, after reading Mike Bettison's piece in
English Dance and Song, in which he suggested that MacColl composed the well-known tune for 'Scarborough Fair', to compare that soaring Dorian melody with the one for 'Four Loom Weaver'. Try it yourselves, it's very instructive."

[It's also been suggested that EMC composed the tune to 'Four Loom Weaver']


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 06 May 15 - 02:44 PM

Lighter .... the family told Mike Bettison recently that Mark was the person who sang THAT version of Scarborough Fair, but they might have had that information from the Singing Island!!

For MacColl hallmarks, see the Becket Whitehead thread, and the message from Brian peters on 13 January 2014 at 9.35.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=61225&messages=90#3592242

Derek


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 06 May 15 - 10:29 AM

r4 producers must know what their audience likes.
I enjoyed the 'music' bits, MC etc.
I suppose the Claire Jones/Chris Marshall, Sally/Mike Masheder bits were the 'soul' of the programme title.

Too much wind noise for a radio prog but there is a better H&P version on YTube Hayward & Parsons -Scarborough Fair.

Their FB page is Hayward & Parsons FaceBook with links to other songs.

I've been enjoying the early one by Audrey Coppard (pos' only a spotify link)Audrey Coppard -Scarborough Fair.

and the slightly different melody of Gordon Heath/Lee Payant -Scarborough Fair (pos' only a spotify link) though the style is somewhat odd!


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Lighter
Date: 06 May 15 - 09:54 AM

Derek, so Anderson did exist - but he may not have known "Scarborough Fair"!

Perhaps they did interview his family and came up with nothing about the song. The whole question would be too complicated and distracting for a 30-minute radio program to deal with.

I'm interested in the MacColl "hallmarks" you mention. Melodic I assume?

Jack, "(b) sexual availability." How would anybody pick up on that just from "Scarborough Fair"? (I'd have thought "Foggy, Foggy Dew" would have worked better; but even then....)

"Mystery," "ancient voices," "pilgrimage," "sensing the song as they go," "journey," "learning to sing it" - obviously in ways no one can in London. Regardless of the program's actual content, the sort of audience the writers appear to have been targeting was mostly young women high on the New Age and "Puck of Pook's Hill."


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 06 May 15 - 08:18 AM

Lighter - he certainly existed. Alan Lomax recorded from him and you can hear the recordings in his online archive. He didn't sing Scarborough Fair to Lomax though ... and there are no recordings of the song sung by Anderson by any other collectors. There are suspicions that MacColl altered the tune... it has some MacColl hallmarks... all very interesting and perhaps the subject of a future radio programme ... (or get hold of the relevant issue of English Dance & Song magazine!!)
Derek


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Penny S.
Date: 06 May 15 - 08:18 AM

Oh dear, perhaps I'd better drop it, though no wind instrument.

I do the version with two people's voices, and especially enjoy the last verse, in which the she tells the he where to get off.

I couldn't quite understand, from the programme, how the S&G version was linked to the anti-Vietnam war movement.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 15 - 07:16 AM

The impact of the songs/music, what they mean to people, how important they have been at crucial points in people's lives is the main point of the programmes.

Scarborough Fair (the S&G tune) has had an oddly specific function in the folk scene, though perhaps not one the programme makers would have wanted to document in interviews. On several occasions I've seen it played (rather badly) by young women on just arriving at the folk scene for the first time, usually on the flute, recorder or tin whistle. It was used to signal two things: (a) willingness to take part in the scene, (b) sexual availability. This was particularly true back when you could wear a Joan Baez hairstyle and a crochet cheesecloth dress without looking like a museum exhibit.

Almost any other choice of initial repertoire indicated somebody with a mind of their own.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Lighter
Date: 06 May 15 - 06:50 AM

> they could have talked to members of the Mark Anderson family (from whom MacColl apparently got the version in Singing Island which Martin Carthy learned and Paul Simon copied...).

It has been alleged (on what basis I'm not sure) that Mark Anderson did not exist, and that MacColl himself was largely responsible for the song's perfect combination of melody and lyrics. Considering the controversy surrounding the trad status of that seminal version, it's incredible that they didn't.

Or...did they?

Was MacColl even mentioned?

(The melody resembles the best-known version of "Henry Martyn.")


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 06 May 15 - 06:31 AM

Betsy ... have you heard any of the other programmes in this series? The impact of the songs/music, what they mean to people, how important they have been at crucial points in people's lives is the main point of the programmes. There have been some moving commentaries in some programmes. I suppose the programme makers start with the song/music and then go in search of people to whom the song/music has been significant. Sometimes that works.

I'd perhaps have to listen to the programme again in case I missed it, but it didn't strike me that anyone made the point that only a small number of versions of the song actually mention Scarborough.... and they could have talked to members of the Mark Anderson family (from whom MacColl apparently got the version in Singing Island which Martin Carthy learned and Paul Simon copied...). The programme makers did know about all this - I sent them the issue of English Dance & Song magazine with Mike Bettison's article about it all ...

Derek


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Betsy
Date: 05 May 15 - 06:28 PM

I listened to the programme.
Maybe I'm a bit of a uni-directional thinker or philistine , but I couldn't understand the over-dependency on the programme's content of
"Decades on Harpist Claire Jones recorded a version of her own. Arranged by her husband, the composer Chris Marshall, hers is a very personal journey through unexpected illness to recovery. Whilst for Mike Masheder it is a song that brings memories of his wife Sally, who approached the journey of life with love and equanimity".
I was totally confused and slightly miffed.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 05 May 15 - 05:47 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05stg0l
radio
broadcast today 5 May 2015 and available now on i-player
30 min programme

"Tomorrow we're going in search of a song and in search of a dream of England which has travelled right around the world" - Will Parsons

No one can be sure of the true origins of the song Scarborough Fair. It's a melody of mystery, of voices of old, of ancient days. It's travelled through land and time, drawing singers and listeners in where ever they maybe.

For Will Parsons and Guy Hayward it's a song that has inspired a pilgrimage through a landscape that is embodied in the lyrics. Setting off from Whitby Abbey, they journey to Scarborough on foot, sensing the song as they go, learning to sing it, interpreting it in a new way just as thousands of traditional singers have done throughout time.

This too is the landscape of Martin Carthy, the 'father of folk' who has made his home along the Yorkshire coast. It was from this legendary singer that Paul Simon first learnt Scarborough Fair, creating a version that came to represent a generation continuing its journey far and wide, weaving its spell in many different guises, never truly being pinned down.

Decades on Harpist Claire Jones recorded a version of her own. Arranged by her husband, the composer Chris Marshall, hers is a very personal journey through unexpected illness to recovery. Whilst for Mike Masheder it is a song that brings memories of his wife Sally, who approached the journey of life with love and equanimity.

"It can change or stay the same. And the more it changes, the more it stays the same" - Martin Carthy

Produced by Nicola Humphries
With expert contribution from Sandra Kerr, musician and lecturer at Newcastle University School of Arts and Culture.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 11 - 02:51 AM

---BTW, I cannot find this tune in Bronson: too late for his first, early 60s, volume; but does not seem to be in addenda at end of vol 4, 1972, either, tho known by then. Can anyone explain this? Or is it somewhere there & I have failed to locate it?---

Refresh to repeat this question ~~

Anyone?

~M~


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 11 - 04:02 AM

Would add that, tho the point has most probably been made on one or some of the several threads on this ballad, which I have not had quite the energy or dedication to read thru every one of, LoL!, it doesn't seem to be made here, & IMO should be recalled on every thread re this song:-

i.e. that it is a version of The Elfin Knight, Child#2, about a *magic* knight giving a mortal girl various tasks to do before she can join him in Faerie & become enchanted, & enchantress, herself;   & that the herbs specified in the burden are all recognised *magic* plants.

This has been somewhat misunderstood in some versions, tho the variations often have a charm of their own. I have always found "Sober and grave grow merry in time", in one of the US variants which Peggy sang on The Long Harvest, a most fertile and interesting version, making a peculiar sort of sense.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 May 11 - 03:28 AM

Refreshing this old thread, [& setting aside the facetious turn it had taken in last few posts!]----

I recently posted the following to another ongoing thread which had drifted on to Scarboro Fair ~~

-----Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan)
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 28 May 11 - 12:39 PM

Nobody above [or did I miss it?] has given the correct source for MacColl's version of Scarboro Fair, later sung by Carthy & stolen by SimGarf ~~

~~sung by Mark Anderson, retired lead miner of Middleton-in-Teasdale, Yorkshire, 1947 ~~ performed by Ewan MacColl on Argo's The Long Harvest, vol 2, 1967: side 1, Section 2, The Elfin Knight {Child 2}.---


Mr Anderson is mentioned above by Jim Carroll, and taken up as a source by Dick {GSS} Miles wjo OPd this thread. But the precision of my above refs seems to be lacking on this major thread, which is why I venture to repeat it here.

BTW, I cannot find this tune in Bronson: too late for his first, early 60s, volume; but does not seem to be in addenda at end of vol 4, 1972, either, tho known by then. Can anyone explain this? Or is it somewhere there & I have failed to locate it?



~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:18 PM

oh yes, Round the Horn,with Kenneth Horne


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:30 PM

I thought it was a radio programme!


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:54 PM

Rounding of the Horn,is a good song.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: BB
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:38 PM

No, no, Dave, you've got it wrong - it "The gallant frigate Araldite, she stuck to Plymouth Sound." :-)

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:30 PM

mr happy what alovely collection of thunderstorms.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 May 08 - 09:54 AM

Best version of Scarborough Fair is from the Book Of Curtailed Folksongs

Are you going to Scarborough Fair ?
No.

Best song from the book?

The gallant frigate "Amphitrite" she sank in Plymouth Sound.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 May 08 - 08:38 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-7w4BLQVXFo Hmmmmmnnn,
not always fair then!


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 08 - 08:11 AM

I am convinced,that the only way to get people to hear traditional singers,is to use the internet to expose them to the music.,the more the ordinary [non folkie hears],the more their ear gets attuned to the style.
unfortunately we now live in an age where people expect everything to be easily available.
I had never heard Roscoe Holcomb sing until I found him on Pete Seegers show on youtube.
IMO The music has to be publicised in an over the top way,only a small amount of people will come seeking it,We now have the opportunity through you tube /sound lantern and other sites to reach thousands of people,and to push traditional singers into the mainstream.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:39 PM

Jack, And they're just the famous ones. Many of Harry Clifton's, Joe Geoghegan's, Sam Cowell's songs of the 1860s were found in oral tradition during the last century and some are still turning up. We know the authors of some of the broadside ballads of the early nineteenth century as well, e.g. John Morgan, George Brown.

Jim, Dick,
The first phase of the Yorkshire Garland project now has 88 recordings on the site, mostly of source singers, and some not available previously. Also like your collection, Jim, my recordings made in the East Riding with Jim Eldon are also at the BLSA, and a copy now in the VWML. If we can get further funding we hope to put some of the Hudleston recordings online as well.

Cheers,
Steve


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:31 AM

Cap'n
If I thought there was enough interest to get the songs take up by the next generation I would stand on Oxford Circus and give them out.
You get to a point where you think it's time that people made the effort themselves instead of having them dropped through the letterbox.
It can be somewhat disheartening to make your material as available as you are able, then hear people complain that they still aren't available enough.
When Tom Munnelly put together his recordings of John Reilly (arguably one of the most important traditional ballad singers in the 20th century) for Topic (Bonny Green Tree), and donated the proceeds to a Traveller education scheme, the sales were insultingly pathetic.
Then there's the crappy job that revival singers make of the songs; in our case, June Tabour.
I won't reopen old arguments about snide references to traditional singers' abilities.....
I quite often ask myself (until I remember the great people we've met in the process of collecting) whether it was worth it.
As far as I'm concerned, the recordings are there for anybody who is prepared to get up off their bum and access them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:25 AM

I have Around the Hills of Clare,and have enjoyed it.
but you know if you were to put up a track on sound lantern,you are exposing people to traditional singers,and its all publicity,that costs you nothing and may result in a sale.
only trying to be helpful,not meaning to tell my grandmother how to suck eggs.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:51 AM

Thank you Cap'n
I should have added that our recordings are also available on From Puck To Appleby (Travellers) and Around The Hills of Clare, though the latter is reaching the end of its third pressing and may not be re-issued.
There are also tracks included on Voice of the People and Century of Song.
Any money arising from the sale of our recordings have always been donated to The Irish Traditional Music Archive, and so is ploughed back directly into the music.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:50 AM

best of luck with it,Jim.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:49 AM

Cap'n,
Our complete collection will, we hope, be available on line on a web-site connected with a local archive we are helping set up.
It has been available to anybody interested at The British Library, The Irish Traditional Music Archive and The Irish Folklore Department for at least 20 years. These organisations are welcome to make it available on their individual web-sites should they wish to do so, and should the revival wish to assist them raise the funds to facilitate the development of their sites.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:01 AM

Martin Parker, Thomas Lanfiere, Allan Ramsay, Robert Burns, John Hamilton, Robert Tannahill, Sandy Rodger, Blind Willie Purvis, Lady Nairne, Lady John Scott, Harry Lauder, Willie Kemp, Hamish Henderson, Morris Blythman...


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:53 AM

S G ,may have got a lot of people interested in the song by popularising it,who would not otherwise have heard it.
Sometimes,through hearing other versions,and this is where youtube is so handy,they can hear more authentic or closer to the tradition versions.
Jim,there is an audio site called Sound lantern.
you could put some recordings of traditional singers up,you believe in sharing the music and have criticised the revival for being money orientated,there would be people on the site such as myself,who would be interested in hearing your recordings,a chance for you to share the music for free.
Steve.thats a subject,that deserves a thread of its own ,join mudcat and you can start a thread,right now I am off to play some music.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:22 AM

Steve
"There's a considerable amount of traditional material for which we know the authors"
There's certainly some, but I think 'considerable' is overstating it a little.
There are several writers whose songs have passed into the tradition here in Ireland, but I would be hard pressed to name many in the UK
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:51 PM

Dick
'all traditional material is author unknown'.
I'm sure you must have made a faux pas on that one. There's a considerable amount of traditional material for which we know the authors, from the 16th century right upto at least 1908 and probably even more recent.


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:47 AM

Nope - but that's another argument
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:07 PM

Give it another 50 years and I reckon Carthy will most definitely be 'part of the tradtion.'


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:47 PM

Irishenglish
I take your point completely
Cap'n,
Isn't that what I just said?
"which, of course, in itself, is pretty meaningless as it is part of a centuries old chain"
Whosever the song is, it is certainly neither Carthy's not S&Gs (none of whom are part of the tradition, merely borrowing from it)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:24 PM

JIM ,Presumably Mark Anderson learned it from someone else.
with the greatest respect it could be argued from your argument,that Mark Anderson was not the original source anymore than Carthy,but he was the last known source.
somebody must have written the song originally,yes it may possibly have been added to,all traditional material is author unknown,but is originally someones composition.
Mark Anderson did not write the song,he was part of a chain,just as Carthy and S and G are.that does not mean I dont appreciate Mark Andersons role,as a song carrier.
Dick Miles


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