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BS: Teachers on strike UK

GUEST,Scooby Doo 24 Apr 08 - 06:32 AM
Mr Happy 24 Apr 08 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,Scooby Doo 24 Apr 08 - 06:53 AM
The Villan 24 Apr 08 - 07:09 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 08 - 07:21 AM
The Villan 24 Apr 08 - 07:27 AM
jonm 24 Apr 08 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,Non-striking teacher 24 Apr 08 - 07:43 AM
The Villan 24 Apr 08 - 08:05 AM
theleveller 24 Apr 08 - 08:12 AM
Anne Lister 24 Apr 08 - 08:15 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 08 - 08:21 AM
The Villan 24 Apr 08 - 08:30 AM
theleveller 24 Apr 08 - 08:40 AM
The Villan 24 Apr 08 - 08:55 AM
The Villan 24 Apr 08 - 08:59 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 08 - 09:03 AM
The Villan 24 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,LTS pretending to work 24 Apr 08 - 09:13 AM
Peace 24 Apr 08 - 10:14 AM
nutty 24 Apr 08 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Scooby Doo 24 Apr 08 - 11:03 AM
Mrs.Duck 24 Apr 08 - 12:21 PM
Mrs.Duck 24 Apr 08 - 12:34 PM
Sooz 24 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,Scooby Doo 24 Apr 08 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,albert 24 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM
Scooby Doo 24 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM
Mrs.Duck 24 Apr 08 - 04:49 PM
Jean(eanjay) 24 Apr 08 - 06:04 PM
The Sandman 24 Apr 08 - 06:19 PM
Peace 24 Apr 08 - 06:22 PM
Liz the Squeak 24 Apr 08 - 06:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Apr 08 - 06:45 PM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 02:42 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 03:14 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 03:15 AM
theleveller 25 Apr 08 - 03:32 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 03:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Apr 08 - 04:03 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 04:16 AM
GUEST,LTS pretending to work 25 Apr 08 - 04:31 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 04:39 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 04:43 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Apr 08 - 05:23 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 05:27 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 05:28 AM
Jean(eanjay) 25 Apr 08 - 05:42 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Apr 08 - 05:47 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 06:47 AM
Bonzo3legs 25 Apr 08 - 06:58 AM
Jean(eanjay) 25 Apr 08 - 07:07 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Apr 08 - 07:10 AM
GUEST,Cats 25 Apr 08 - 07:10 AM
GUEST,Non-striking teacher 25 Apr 08 - 07:10 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Apr 08 - 07:10 AM
GUEST,Cats 25 Apr 08 - 07:15 AM
Scooby Doo 25 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM
The Sandman 25 Apr 08 - 08:22 AM
nutty 25 Apr 08 - 08:24 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Apr 08 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Cats 25 Apr 08 - 08:44 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Apr 08 - 09:47 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 10:11 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM
jonm 25 Apr 08 - 10:31 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 10:50 AM
Mrs.Duck 25 Apr 08 - 10:52 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 11:02 AM
meself 25 Apr 08 - 11:20 AM
The Villan 25 Apr 08 - 11:30 AM
Bonzo3legs 25 Apr 08 - 11:43 AM
Peace 25 Apr 08 - 11:48 AM
meself 25 Apr 08 - 11:49 AM
Cats 25 Apr 08 - 01:40 PM
Peace 25 Apr 08 - 01:44 PM
the lemonade lady 25 Apr 08 - 05:51 PM
Cats 26 Apr 08 - 02:15 AM
Liz the Squeak 26 Apr 08 - 02:26 AM
Cats 26 Apr 08 - 02:38 AM
Liz the Squeak 26 Apr 08 - 02:57 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Apr 08 - 03:07 AM
The Villan 26 Apr 08 - 05:53 AM
sapper82 26 Apr 08 - 06:15 AM
sapper82 26 Apr 08 - 06:25 AM
Rog Peek 26 Apr 08 - 01:25 PM
Peace 26 Apr 08 - 01:45 PM
sapper82 27 Apr 08 - 05:27 AM
Cats 27 Apr 08 - 08:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Apr 08 - 07:38 PM
Peace 27 Apr 08 - 08:07 PM
Cats 28 Apr 08 - 01:53 AM
Liz the Squeak 28 Apr 08 - 02:40 AM
jonm 28 Apr 08 - 09:52 AM
Peace 28 Apr 08 - 09:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Apr 08 - 06:13 PM
Peace 28 Apr 08 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,Al 14 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Cats 15 Jan 09 - 05:57 AM
Jean(eanjay) 15 Jan 09 - 07:05 AM
paula t 15 Jan 09 - 04:04 PM
GUEST,Ian cookieless 15 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM
paula t 15 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM
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Subject: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Scooby Doo
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:32 AM

I know several teachers in the folk scene and out off.I agree on the strike,what do fellow teachers here on Mudcat feel especially as so many exams are going on eg sats etc.


Scooby


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:50 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7363718.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Scooby Doo
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:53 AM

Thanks for the thread.



Scooby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:09 AM

isn't it strange.

As a parent, if you pull your son or daughter out of school for whatever reason, you are heading into trouble.
However, the very people that try to enforce such rules for the good of the children and exams etc, couldn't give a toss about walking out on strike (I am talking about the teachers who are out on strike, not the ones that have cariied on teaching).

From what I can see, they are already earning good pay and will probably finish up with good pensions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:21 AM

Average Nurse's pay £27k p.a.
Average Police Constable's pay £28k p.a.
Average Teacher's pay £34k p.a.
(Source - BBC 'Breakfast' programme this a.m.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:27 AM

Why are they striking then. Sounds to me that they are already on decent pay.

There are a lot of people in this country who are just about surviving on the poverty line, who will never ever get that sort of pay.

Shame on you teachers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: jonm
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:27 AM

.... but it is a requirement for a teacher to be a graduate with an additional post-graduate qualification, neither of which apply to the police or nursing (where training is given on the job, not required in advance of employment, too).

Perhaps a better comparison would be with engineering (average £44k) or GPs?

Personally, I'm in support of the teachers since the salaries are not compatible with other graduate professions, but not in support of strike action.

College lecturers are also on strike today, a fact hardly anyone has noticed (well, the students are adults and many have just gone to the pub etc.). This is because the Government is mixing more and more school-age kids into Colleges where staff are paid on average 6% less than the teachers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Non-striking teacher
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:43 AM

Average Teacher's pay £34k p.a.? As any Maths teacher knows, averages don't really tell you much. It also depends how the average was worked out. The vast majority of teachers earn a huge amount less than this.

That said, The Villan makes a valid point, which is why I am not striking. Now is not the time to strike with the economy as a whole looking shaky and GCSEs and A Levels looming. I do not think striking is always wrong, but the issue of pay is not serious enough to warrant it, IMO. Do the NUT really think the govt. is going to simply roll over and give us more money just because a patchy strike, which a tiny minority of all teachers voted for (a minority even within the one union that voted at all), closed some schools for one day?

Morale amongst teachers is dipping and dipping. The issue for today's strike is pay, but there is a much deeper well of rightful resentment here, and even if we were to be paid over the odds, this would not address the real underlying issues. The unions have not served us well by only focussing on and acting on pay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:05 AM

Very ghood to hear what you say Gnst.

Its about time teachers were given the role to teach without the 90% paperwork that goes with it and having control of the class,instead of having to pamper to all those rude, insolent and diabolical children who don't give a toss about morality and society and get away with unbeleivable acts against teachers.

I reckon if those two items were sorted, we might get back to teacher pride and enthusiasm for their job. More important than a few quid extra pay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:12 AM

Do you want your children to be taught by the best people that the profession can attract, with commensurate salaries - or isn't your children's education of any concern to you? Yer pays yer money.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Anne Lister
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:15 AM

As an occasional supply teacher, there are far bigger issues to address than pay, as far as I'm concerned. For example, the numerous schools who book their supply cover via agencies, which costs them more or less the same as if they booked teachers directly but means I lose around £60 per day (gross). There are also questions about conditions of work - the behaviour issues, the extra hours spent on fairly meaningless paperwork etc - which are far higher up my own list of priorities.
Although I'm a long-standing member of the NUT I wouldn't have voted for this strike (no one asked me because I'm a supply teacher). I would, however, campaign for better pay for other workers. My husband (who works in a council-run living history museum - a very fine place indeed) is paid only marginally more than the minimum wage, despite the unusual mix of skills he has to use on a daily basis.
And all this argument about the 10p rate of tax - no one talks about us. We're not youngsters, nor are we at the upper end of the age they're talking about, but no one has mentioned that childless couples of any age will be affected by this.
Ah well. I suppose I've made my own choices. But now I'm disillusioned with my union as well as my politicians. Great.

Anne


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:21 AM

Villan, when you and I were at school if we misbehaved, the teacher punished us, and then if we dared to tell our parents about it, we were punished again. A status quo prevailed.

The arrival of the doting, smart-arse, barrack-room-lawyer, "I know more about teachers' jobs than any teacher", "How dare you punish my Perfect Little Angel" brigade of parents wrecked the status quo, and it will never be restored.

If children are rude, insolent and diabolical in the classroom, it's because thirty years' of these kind of parents, and the increasingly litigious society we live in, have encouraged them to be so.

44 years ago, when I left school, I'd have given my right arm to have the balls to go to college (no degree needed in those days, jonm, just 'A' Levels and a three-year course at Teacher Training College) and become a teacher. I wouldn't be one for a king's ransom today.

And FWIW, I don't begrudge them a pay-rise. But I think nurses and policemen should earn the same as them - they're all underpaid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:30 AM

If only we could get back to those days with the kids.

>>Do you want your children to be taught by the best people that the profession can attract, with commensurate salaries - or isn't your children's education of any concern to you? Yer pays yer money..... <<

Of course I care. However a peice of paper doesn't prove anything.
I would like to see teachers teaching with all the skills they have, and cut the paperwork crap out. Likewise get control in the classroom back.

I know a few people who were very good at getting an academic qualification to teach, but didn't have the skills to teach.

Get that right, then come back and talk about pay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:40 AM

Bit of sweeping statement about the whole profession, Villain. Are you basing your opinion on an in-depth knowledge of the teaching profession or just an in-built prejudice? My wife's an eductaion lecturer with an MEd and spends all he working life in schools, largely in deprived areas. She will confirm that the standard of teaching is, largely, excellent and, where deficient, is almost always picked up by OFSTED inspectors and remedial action taken.

But, hey, don't let anything as boring as the facts get in the way of your argument!


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:55 AM

Then why is it that most kids are so poor with English or Maths (or so we are led to beleive).


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:59 AM

By the way leveller, I wasn't inferring that your wife was in that mould. She may well be one of the teachers I have respect for, but I am not in a position to judge. As I said, just because somebody gets a qualification, does not necessarily make them a good teacher.

There are teachers who are very good, but are so frustrated with conditions of work, not so much the pay. Yes we would all like more money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:03 AM

"Then why is it that most kids are so poor with English or Maths (or so we are led to beleive)."

I know one or two old 'uns who aren't great at spelling either! LOL!

BWM (The View From The Wannabe-English-Teacher's Blackboard).


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM

Oh dear, silly me, forgot to spell check LOL

Believe


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:13 AM

"why is it that most kids are so poor with English or Maths"

Possibly because class sizes approach or exceed 30 and in many areas the majority of pupils do not have English as their first language. Facilities in some areas are sadly lacking, many school buildings are over 100 years old, and the curriculum requires so much from each individual that there is not enough time to do it all.

Teachers in major cities may get 'weighting' (a slightly higher pay rate to cover the alledged cost of living in the city), but many are also 'handcuffed' by contracts. At one point, not so many years ago, if a new teacher got their first job in London, they could not leave London for 5 years without major penalties. Consequently, London had a major shortage of 'new blood'.

As with nurses, police, fire and ambulance officers, teachers often cannot afford to live in the areas they teach. I am a parent/governor of a local school in London - over 2/3rds of the staff do not live within 10 miles, because they cannot afford the housing that is available nearby.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 10:14 AM

"But ministers maintain teachers are rewarded adequately, and that parents would feel little sympathy for their demands."

Yeah. Now, maybe someone could find out how much these ministers get and what THEIR pension is like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: nutty
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 10:29 AM

Teachers last took industrial action 22 years ago and I was one of them. The conditions were similar. Wages were being eroded yet more and more was being expected.

Then , like now, the unions were being goaded into action - it really is a no win situation.

The government will allow pay to be eroded while perporting to be doing its best and if teachers do nothing they will keep on doing it.

If however, teachers take action. the government can throw its hands up in the air at such unreasonable behaviour by greedy teachers and still have an excuse for doing nothing.

It may not do any good but at least for some teachers, striking allows them to feel that they are making a stand.

Instead of looking at how much better pay would cost - look at how much teachers actually save the government by teaching larger classes and doing supervision duties.
Also look at how the government are allowing standards to erode by using unqualified teachers - something that was done away with in the early 1900's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Scooby Doo
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 11:03 AM

You all have gone on about maths what about reading and writing.



Scooby


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:21 PM

I am a teacher at the top of the pay scale for a standard classroom teacher and yet earn well under the 'average' quoted by the media. Teachers undergo extended studies to gain their professional status and that includes learning teaching skills. Most teachers spend as much time working out of the classroom as they do in it and face very stressful situations on a daily basis. If they get children to work hard and pass exams the media will say the exams are getting easier but if kids don't pass its the teachers that are blamed - can't win!
Tabster you have perhaps answered my question as to why I wasn't asked to vote. I am still listed as a supply teacher although I am now on a temporary contract. NUT members at the school where I work made the decision to support the strike and so I have been at home today. Do I think the kids will miss out? Its one day every 22 years! Although local authorities make a big fuss over unauthorised abscences in reality it is only the children who perpetually miss days or take extended holidays that really have problems keeping up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:34 PM

9/10 for spelling :(
absence
absence
absence


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Sooz
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM

The problem isn't really the average salary. It is the newly qualified teachers on a starting salary of around 20K and a massive student loan who have a problem. They soon see that their friends with similar qualifications earn a lot more so they are lured away from the prefession into other careers. Few new entrants last beyond the second or third year. As those of us with 30+ years experience but who are too knackered to continue call it a day there will be even more problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Scooby Doo
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:49 PM

I agree with Mrs Duck what is one day.The teachers have to make a hole to let the government see they mean business.


Scooby


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM

I am a teacher and a member of the NUT. The strike is an attempt to stop year on year below inflation pay awards.
What concerns me greatly is that for three decades the rich have grown far richer under both New Labour and the Tories. City executives,bankers and other fat cats have grown bloated with massive yearly pay awards [to themselves ] while also ripping off public assests,our pension funds, share dividends and so on.
Its about time they realised and our union leaders realise that the output of our economy is the product of our labour...and that is why all the low paid need to be in unions and in the position to face down the greedy class that has done so well out of the free market and neo liberalism.
Sorry I havent put it well.And the lesson for the children in all this is...join a union!
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM

I know two teachers in the same family one on strike one was not .That must have been hrd for the family.What do you as teachers feel?.


Scooby


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:49 PM

Probably just in different unions. NUT were the only union striking today but many teachers are in NASUWT or PAT and those have not balloted on strike action as far as I know. At the school where I work three struck (NUT members) and three didn't but there was no bad feeling either way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:04 PM

PAT have a no strike policy so they will not have balloted on strike action. I'm a member of PAT; they do not strike but would be unwilling to take up work laid down by others.

I agree with what jonm said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:19 PM

what qualifications do politicians have,why do they get paid more than teachers?
politicians also have the oppurtunity,to earn extra income,as consultants.the problem with this is when the consultancy interests clash with who they are supposed to represent their constituents.
Ithink teachers deserve to be paid the same as members of parliament.
Well-placed sources say that a report submitted to Downing Street by the Senior Salaries Review Body says MPs' pay should go up from its present £60,675 to about £66,500 over three years - nearly 10 per cent.


It involves a 2.8 per cent hike in April followed by index-linked rises in the next two years, in addition to an annual £800 "top-up".


As well as their salary, MPs receive generous perks including a second-home allowance, subsidised travel and a gold-plated pension. Commons holidays average four months a year, though MPs claim they pension.



Commons holidays average four months a year, though MPs claim they spend much of this time working in their constituencies. http://www.dickmiles.com


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:22 PM

Don't know about England, but I do know in Canada we're happy we don't get all the government we pay for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:31 PM

Ah, so that's where the £8 a month they're taking from my pay now, is going to....

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:45 PM

Three years of sub inflation pay increments = A PAY CUT!!

How many workers in any industry are willing to take a pay cut, whether imposed by employers or government. If you wouldn't accept that yourself, why would you feel that teachers should?

Up to £10,000 in student debt to be paid back at 5% interest, and you are offered 2.5%, just at the time that your cost of living rises by 4%.

Electricity and gas 14-15% up.
Council tax 8% up, where I live.
Fuel for your car up 58pence per gallon in the last year (currently £5+ per gallon for unleaded, and a lot more than that for diesel)
Food up by more than 5% in the last few weeks.

How can this government claim any fiscal credibility when in spite of all this they cut pay to public service workers, in real terms, while increasing both their own pay, and their expenses too.

I think it fair to say that the teachers have a point. The fact that they earn more than certain other public employees is not an excuse for cutting THEIR salaries, but rather a good reason to review police and NHS workers pay with a view to an increase in line with the true rate of inflation.

As for the effect on the pupils sitting, or about to sit exams, well, if one day lost will cause them to fail, they didn't have much chance of passing without losing that day.

As a spokesman said on BBCs Breakfast program, if we drive all the best brains out of the profession by refusing adequately to reward them for their skills, then we are selling our children short and jeopardising their future.

Don T.(Not a teacher, or a teachers' representative. Just a bloke who has worked alongside teachers for fifteen years, and learned to respect and admire them for their skills, and for their patience with stupid politicians, which is understandably wearing thin).


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 02:42 AM

There are people much worse off.

We have made cuts in order to cope, including a ban on alcohol and buying the cheapest products and cutting out luxuries and being prudent with the use of Gas Electricity and Water. Fortunately we don't smoke and our holiday is already paid for (partly by Tesco £1 = £4 vouchers).

Our take home pay £17000 for a family of four.

Nobody to cry too or any big union to get us out on strike. Just tighten the spending purse and get on with life.

The damage to the country on all the strikes that are coming up will only make matters worse with a government that is spiralling out of control.

So stop thinking about yourselves, there are many many people in desperate situations, not just the teachers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:14 AM

Just seen that the cost to the economy for the Grangemouth Strike could cost the economy 50 million. Hello, who is going to pay for that?
Cost to the economy for the teachers strike - any ideas?


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:15 AM

>>Just seen that the cost to the economy for the Grangemouth Strike could cost the economy 50 million. Hello, who is going to pay for that?
<<

oops

Just seen that the cost to the economy for the Grangemouth Strike could be 50 million. Hello, who is going to pay for that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:32 AM

"over 2/3rds of the staff do not live within 10 miles, because they cannot afford the housing that is available nearby"

Probably because of the sharp-elbowed parents who want to make sure that their little darlings get into the best schools ....and sod the teachers who have made those schools so good!

I understand from my wife that at quite a few of the schools where she does training, teachers refused to strike because they were worried that it might affect the children and reflect in the SATs exams to be held shortly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:59 AM

>>Just seen that the cost to the economy for the Grangemouth Strike could be 50 million<<

50 million a day

>>I understand from my wife that at quite a few of the schools where she does training, teachers refused to strike because they were worried that it might affect the children and reflect in the SATs exams to be held shortly. <<

Sense prevails and I applaud them.

>>"over 2/3rds of the staff do not live within 10 miles, because they cannot afford the housing that is available nearby"<<

Doesn't that apply to most people who have jobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:03 AM

"Our take home pay £17000 for a family of four.

Nobody to cry too or any big union to get us out on strike. Just tighten the spending purse and get on with life."

Ditto me mate, only ours is less than £15,000, and I still say that the fact that others are worse off is no good reason to drag anyone else down. My concept of civilisation was about getting all of us out of poverty, not bringing everyone else down into it.

I don't know about you, but MY contribution to society is considerably less than that of teachers, nurses, or policemen, so I concentrate on maximising my position, and don't begrudge others getting the just reward for their contribution.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:16 AM

Fine, but striking does IMHO more harm than good and as I said "there are many many people in desperate situations". I should have added "and much worse than ours".

>>My concept of civilisation was about getting all of us out of poverty, not bringing everyone else down into it.
<<

Well I don't think that I have any control over that. The government look to be doing that on their own.

I don't begrudge anybody earning as much as they can, I just hate strikes and the damage they do to the economy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:31 AM

>>"over 2/3rds of the staff do not live within 10 miles, because they cannot afford the housing that is available nearby"<<

Doesn't that apply to most people who have jobs.


No. I work 8 miles from where I live, my colleague next to me lives 10 minutes away. This is 10 miles of city we're talking about here, of which the City - the Square Mile of London City - is only a small part.

Find a map of London and put a compass' point on West Ham Football Ground. Work out by scale what a 5 mile radius would be and then see how much residential building is included in that circle. It's a lot.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:39 AM

Well theers an aweful lot of people who live outside the M25 ring who travel daily to work in London, as you would know if you are tavelling on the M4/M3/M1 and the trains.

I have had to do it myself when I lived and worked down there. In fact for a year and a half, I had to travel daily from Bracknell to Watford to work. Just part of the job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:43 AM

Missed off the M11 and M20 plus all the other A roads that lead into London.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:23 AM

""Well I don't think that I have any control over that. The government look to be doing that on their own.

I don't begrudge anybody earning as much as they can, I just hate strikes and the damage they do to the economy.""


Can't disagree with either of those comments. This government is an unmitigated disaster, a total loss without insurance.

I hate strikes too, but when you get right down to it, what other mechanism do we have that has the slightest chance of making the government take seriously the concerns of our citizens?

The right to strike in the face of injustice is, whether we like it or not, a part of our system, so how can we say that it is wrong to use it in support of a just claim.

Would you agree with me that all of us should see our income rise by AT LEAST the rate of inflation annually? Anything less is a pay CUT, and that is what teachers have received for three years on the trot.

Others are in the same position, and I would support THEM just as strongly if they took action.

It is true that some of us (myself included) do not have the mechanism, or the support to take action, and are therefore at the mercy of this bankrupt of ideas administration, but I still support those who can taking what action they can.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:27 AM

As I said, I am anti strike, but tehre is nowt I can do about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:28 AM

*there


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:42 AM

I also am anti strike which is why I am in a union which has a no strike policy. However, none of this affects me anymore because I have recently stopped working and am decluttering and downshifting.

I agree with Don T.

IMO the NUT has been pushed into this and will not have taken strike action lightly. I fully support the teachers. Hopefully children who were out of school for the day will have done private revision for upcoming exams, caught up on homework, investigations, projects and coursework.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:47 AM

"Would you agree with me that all of us should see our income rise by AT LEAST the rate of inflation annually?"

No Don, I wouldn't. Going down that road FUELS the very inflation you're moaning about. It's a basic fact of Economics, and it's one of the factors that drove the runaway inflation of the 70's (or was it the 80's - my brain's tired?).

The better control is to encourage hard work and maximise production, control public spending, and hold down income inflation. That way, prices don't rise (or not as fast), so no need for big pay-increases chasing prices. IMHO of course.

Easy to say, but not so easy to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 06:47 AM

Does anybody know what the cost to the economy was for the Teachers strike?

Will they lose one days pay and the loss of one days holiday?

Will they have money deducted from their salary to refund parents who have had to pay for extra childcare or even take a day off work to look after them?

Will the bus companies that ferry the children to school be compensated for loss of income and if so who will pay for that?

Will the food companies that provide school dinners be compensated for loss of income and if so who will pay for that?

The list is endless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 06:58 AM

Erm.......school lunches I would have thought!


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:07 AM

As far as I know teachers do lose pay when they take strike action, unless they are paid from union funds - but I'm not absolutely sure about that.

Other people's childcare is not the responsibility of teachers. Presumably parents who work have things in place for those occasions - a child could be taken ill at school and have to be taken home with no warning.

Arguments can get silly when they are taken too far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:10 AM

Villan, it doesn't matter how the money/compensation/whatever you call it is shuffled about, the plain, simple, unadorned fact is that, as education is funded out of taxes, if any payments are made to anyone, The Taxpayer will pay. No one else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:10 AM

My union was not on strike yesterday but I did nothing that would undermine the industrial action taken by another TUC affiliated trade union. So, what are the other unions doing about pay? Well, when the pay award was declared all those unions who are in the social partnership who negotiate with the government sat together and invoked the clause which was written in, and insisted on, by the SP unions i.e. that if inflation goes above 3.5% we could reopen pay negotiations with the government. For the last few weeks these unions have been negotiating with them for a new increase. It may not be this year that the new increase comes but, as teachers pay rises are negotiated and declared over 3 years, there may be an increase over the next two. NUT are not part of the SP, their choice as they did not agree with some aspects and I respect that, so only had this route open to them. They do not negotiate with the government in the SP. As for going on strike, my union, like the others use strike action as a last resort and usually on a school by school basis. We tend to use actions like withdrawl of good will and as most schools run on the good will of teachers , losing that hits the school but not the students. This does not mean to say that we would never call a national strike but have not done so for well over 25 years, using other forms of industrial action instead and only where needed. We e mailed as many members as possible within 24 hours of the increase being announced and asked what did the members want us to do and what was their biggest concern in conditions of service at present. The overwhelming answer was no strike action but real concerns over the increase in workload.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Non-striking teacher
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:10 AM

The Villan asked:

"Does anybody know what the cost to the economy was for the Teachers strike?" No. Like the supposed average teacher's salary, there will be conflicting figures, as we are not talking about a straightforward calculation.

"Will they lose one days pay and the loss of one days holiday?" Yes, pay is deducted for striking. No, because a strike is not a holiday.

"Will they have money deducted from their salary to refund parents who have had to pay for extra childcare or even take a day off work to look after them?" Rhetorical question, so not worth answering. Who would administer this?!

"Will the bus companies that ferry the children to school be compensated for loss of income and if so who will pay for that?" Rhetorical question, so not worth answering, as above.

"Will the food companies that provide school dinners be compensated for loss of income and if so who will pay for that?" No. Like any strike, there is no compensation for those affected by knock-on effects. I think you know this already: another rhetorical question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:10 AM

And Eanjay's right. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:15 AM

Sorry forgot to add, if teachers go on strike they lose a days pay. This is worked out as 1/195 of their salary plus on costs as teachers contracts are for only 195 days per year, we do not actually get paid for our holidays. We choose to take our pay averaged out over 12 months so we have money all year round but you could opt to have it paid on a month by month basis. The other thing about teachers contracts is that, until a very short while ago, on top of the 1265 contracted hours over 195 days we had something called 'professional time' which we had to do but were not paid for. This was however much time it took you to do your job!


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM

Mrs Duck.
Thanks for the info you gave me.


Scooby


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:22 AM

pay rises are not the only thing that create inflation,
cost of raw materials[oil petrol etc],contribute,as does the amount of money being saved or spent[control of the money supply].
the polticians [ IMO, who are useless anyway]give themselves a rise,but wont give comparable income to the teachers.
IN productive industry,rather than service based,it used to be,deliberately arranged between unions and management to manufacture a one day srike[about some minor demarcation],to keep production down[listen to the song William Brown],and no harm was done to the economy at all,it enabled the price of the produced article to remain high,if too much was produced, the price went down.,it is the very nature of capitalism.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: nutty
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:24 AM

Teachers who went on strike will also lose one day of their pension entitlement


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:27 AM

"pay rises are not the only thing that create inflation"

Quite right Capt., I don't think I said they were! I said:-

"The better control is to encourage hard work and maximise production, control public spending, and hold down income inflation. That way, prices don't rise (or not as fast), so no need for big pay-increases chasing prices."

I reckon I said pretty much the same as you, but in different words?


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:44 AM

Nutty you are right about the pension loss too, although there is a clause which says if you are within the last 3 years of your emplyment you do not have to go out as this is the time period which your final pension is based on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 09:47 AM

You're very fortunate if you still have a final salary scheme. Most of us in industry lost that years ago, unilaterlally withdrawn by employers and replaced by money-purchase schemes, and we're now at the mercy of the gamblers-in-pin-stripes on the stock exchange. :-(

But I certainly don't begrudge anyone a pay-rise, and I think you are entitled to do whatever your conscience permits in order to achieve your end.

Also if, as keeps being said, the main problem is newbie teachers not getting enough to live on and having to bale out in the first two or three years, why not forgo a general pay-rise, and use the money saved there to pay for increased starting-salaries?


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 10:11 AM

Ok
Is it true that

Fewer than 1 in 3 NUT members bothered to vote in the original strike ballot?

Just 1 in 4 NUT members backed a 1 day strike?

The BCoC estimated firms would lose £68 million as parents took time off to look after children?

Teachers wages have grown by more than 19% in real terms since 1997?

Teachers get gold-plated retirement schemes funded by the taxpayer?

The Tories have surged to an 18-point lead over Labour?


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM

>>why not forgo a general pay-rise, and use the money saved there to pay for increased starting-salaries? <<

Or provide them with accomodation, in the area they have to work and live in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: jonm
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 10:31 AM

Bus companies and caterers will not have lost money; they are paid a block fee, not on a per diem / per capita basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 10:50 AM

That does mean then that they have been paid for something they didn't have to deliver, and is therefore an extra cost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 10:52 AM

My salary certainly hasn't increased by 19% in any terms in the last 10 years! They have increased by around 10% in financial terms but decreased in real terms with increased costs. As for the retirement (pension) scheme it is funded partly by contributions from teachers and partly by the employer's contribution in much the same way as many other pension schemes.
Yes there are a lot of people worse off. But there are many who get higher salaries for less work. I didn't want to strike - it will mean that next month I will be struggling to make ends meet at all - but a majority decision was made and it was time that it was made clear that teachers were not going to just continue to have their workload increased with no financial reward.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:02 AM

IMHO I still haven't heard any good sound solid reason for going on strike, considering the disruption and massive cost incurred.

Lets face it, if you ask for a rise in a private company (notrun by the Gowvernment), it is normally based on performance and inflation (except for promotion of course). If you are told that you will get 3% rise, you either take it on the chin, or if you don't like it, you go find another job with hopefully more pay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: meself
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:20 AM

"That does mean then that they have been paid for something they didn't have to deliver, and is therefore an extra cost."

Oh, come on - first you're complaining that the money is NOT being spent, now you're complaining that it IS being spent. How about if the school busses just drive around and burn up gas during the strike, and the school cooks make lunches and then throw them out? That would keep everything going along nicely, wouldn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:30 AM

Well I don't know. If I pay a taxi company to pick me up 5 days a week and I don't use them one of the days, that has cost me money. Sure, I wouldn't expect the taxi company to do the journey just becuase I had paid them.
So in the same vain, it must have cost somebody money, by not using the facilities that have been paid for. I suppose its a bit like an overhead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:43 AM

"Does anybody know what the cost to the economy was for the Teachers strike?"

I should think a fraction of the cost to the economy/taxpayer of sorting out the blunders of this peabrained government. I should think even Cristina Kirshner could do a better job than "noddy" Brown, and she is regarded as little more than a joke now in Argentina - I know, I've been there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:48 AM

"IMHO I still haven't heard any good sound solid reason for going on strike, considering the disruption and massive cost incurred."

When reasonable negotiation fails, that then is a good sound solid reason. Governments pull the same stuff all over and the same arguments come from the same groups.

The Alberta Teachers' Association took the Government of the Province of Alberta to court because the government wanted to declare us an 'essential service'. The ATA won. Without the right to strike, what recourse do teachers have? I suppose we could throw ourselves at the mercy of our employers?

Tell me this. Tecahers are voicing a concern for wages (in this case). The issue isn't new. Perhaps you could solve the problem the way teachers and government did in Alberta. Negotiations to provied teachers with a wage that is fair and 'raises' that are dependent on the cost of living based on agreed-upon COLA indicators. We will be entering 5-year contract. It took us a long time to get here, and we paid a few prices for it. I would suggest that you could best help make your system better and more secure by complaining to government. They control the purse strings. Rememebr, you'll get what you pay for. It's too bad that the only time most folks care is WHEN teachers have to strike. Sorry for the inconvenience, but I'd like a life, too. And since the general public usually seems not to care about that, then I guess all I have to depend on to effect that goal is other teachers, and the only card we have to play is the strike card. Yes, it is unfortunate, and I think people SHOULD do something about it. It's a disgusting situation. PLEASE, write to your MP. Best wishes to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: meself
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:49 AM

Of course, a strike is SUPPOSED to disrupt the economy to some degree, and cause some general inconvenience if not distress. This is why nobody in their right mind "likes" them. Bear in mind that they invariably cause 'economic disruption' if not distress to the strikers themselves, so a decision to strike is not taken lightly. Not to say that you have to agree with it, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Cats
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 01:40 PM

Peace ~ the unions in the Social Partnership [for explanation see my post above] have negotiated a 3 year pay deal. It has in it a reopener clause if inflation rises above a trigger. It did, so the sp unions are all back around the table negotiating another pay deal. This has been going on for a few weeks. NUT are not SP unions so cannot come back to the negotiating table as they have chosen not to be part of the SP negotiating body, consequently, all they have left is indistrial action, they cannot negotiate with the government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 01:44 PM

Thanks, Cats. I wasn't aware of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:51 PM

Surely the best way to strike is not to vote? Don't go to the polling stations when there's a general election.

Sal


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Cats
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:15 AM

Sal, I could never agree with you on that. My grandmother was a suffragette, went to Holloway Prison and was force fed for her part in getting the vote for women and working class men. It is important to vote. If you don't you have no right to criticise whatever government gets in or what they do. Anyway, I don't want this turning into a thread creep so I'll just say that under the conservative government all negotiating rights werew withdrawn from the unions and there was no consultation just imposition. At least now we are negotiating. And now I'll return to my union work.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:26 AM

"I am told that the working man ought to remain still and let their cause work its way - that God in his good time will bring it about for him. However, this is not my creed; I believe that God works by means and men, and that he expects every man who feels an interest in the subject to take an active part in bringing about and hastening on so important a period. Under such an impression, I would call upon every working man in England , and especially the agricultural labourers, who appear to be the lowest, degraded, and the least active, to shake off that supineness and indifference to their interests, which leaves them in the situation of slaves. Let every working man come forward, from east to west, from north to south; unite firmly but peaceably together as the heart of one man; let them be determined to have a voice in, and form part of, the British nation; then no longer would the interests of the millions be sacrificed for the gain of a few, but the blessings resulting from such a change would be felt by us, our prosperity, even to generations yet unborn".

Tolpuddle, August, 1837 George Loveless.

The occupations may change but the sentiments remain.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Cats
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:38 AM

And I will be at the Tolpuddle Union Rally [now expanded to be the Tolpuddle Festival] in July and I will walk in the procession holding my union banner high and I will leave flowers at the graveside of James Hammet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:57 AM

Inaction is a far greater sin than action.

To not vote in an election is a pointless excersice. If ALL those eligible to vote had done so in the past 25+ years ago, we might not have had the Conservative government that basically de-clawed and castrated the Unions that for nearly 200 year have fought for safer working conditions and appropriate fiscal recognition for the men and women who form the backbone of our society. We might not have had the 'New Labour' government that has further emasculated and shackled the Unions to the point where they have become a laughing stock in most areas, and almost outlawed in others. We might even have our armed forces safe at home.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 03:07 AM

To not vote at an election is indeed a pointless exercise, Liz. Who notices the wishes of the non-voters? No-one, that's who.

And not voting is a show of disrespect for those who suffered, died even, so that us fortunates in 21st-century Great Britain would have a universal right to vote. We should never forget that, or them.

IMHO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 05:53 AM

Liz
I don't think it matters who you put in, they all cock it up eventually, if they are in power too long.

I look at the leader at the time of the elections and if I think they could make a good prime minister (or the best choice out of a bunch of w*****s), I will vote for that party. That of course doesn't mean that they do become a good prime minister.

Although brought up on the conservatives, I have voted labout when Harold Wilson was the leader, and Tony Blair when he was leader.

Unfortunately, George Brown (oops sorry Gordon Brown) is such a tosser, I will be voting for Cameron.

I have always voted, even if I wasn't happy with any of the candidates. I try to look at what I think is the best person available for the job at the time.

There should be a law to make it compusary that everybody has to vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: sapper82
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 06:15 AM

Ironic really.

The NUT were in the forefront of the drive to abolish Grammar Schools.
Result? The gross levelling down we have seen over the past three decades and our brightest children being denied the education their tallents deserve and the country needs.

The NUT were in the vanguard of the move towards the adoption of "Modern," "Child Centred," "Progressive" teaching methods.
Result? More children than ever leaving primary school without the reading and mathematical skills they require and hence feelings of great frustration during their secondary education that contribute to so much of the poor discipline in too many of our schools.

The NUT, during the '60s, demanded total freedom from inspection and fought against any form of assessment of both pupils and teachers.
Result? The imposition of the National Curriculum and OFTURD.

The NUT were strongly in support of "The Society of Teachers Opposed to Physical Punishment" and won the banning of corporal punishment.
Result? A total collapse of Discipline in TOO many of our schools.

Methinks the less the NUT has to do with teaching the better!


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: sapper82
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 06:25 AM

LTS, Considering the chaos and industrial anarchy of the late '70s, thank God we did get Maggie in.
The Trade Unions were not interested in the worker except as a tool to gain more and more power for themselves. A fact well displayed by Scargill's Strike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rog Peek
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:25 PM

"Teachers' pay is determined by the Secretary of State for Education and Skills after recommendations are made by the School Teachers' Review Body (STRB). The STRB was established by the Government as an independent body. (Oh yeah!). Its recommendations, however, rarely vary from the Government's wishes Well what a surprise! . The NUT is campaigning for the restoration of proper negotiating machinery for teacher unions and their employers." (NUT web site)

"The Review Body may have a maximum of nine members; the Chair is appointed by the Prime Minister and the members by the Secretary of State." (teachernet web site)

"Government has undertaken to implement the recommendations of all pay review bodies unless there are clear and compelling reasons to the contrary." (teachernet web site).

"Every year the Secretary of State sends the STRB a remit letter setting out the matters on which the review body is to report......................The Secretary of State may direct it to have regard to certain considerations such as affordability and the Government's policy on public sector pay, but cannot impose limits on what it may recommend, or the cost of its recommendations." (teachernet web site).

So, the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State appoint the members of the review body, they tell the review body what the government can afford, and invariably the review body sets the pay of teachers in line with the governments wishes.

Just so nobody runs away with the idea that the teachers had an opportunity for negotiation.

Incidentally, I never met anyone opposed in principal to strike action who refused to take the increase in pay, or improvement in working condition that resulted from such action.
Rog


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Peace
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:45 PM

In Canada, we the people do not have the ability to set pay scales for our Members of Parliament. They do that for themselves.



Sapper82, NUT may have supported what was then perceived to be an innovation in education, supported by research. The implication in your post was that NUT created that. They did not. Then as now, the government supported that kind of education, so as in the present case as in that case, the buck stops with government, not teachers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: sapper82
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 05:27 AM

But Peace, who was carrying out that research? It was done by an accademia that was, generally, very strongly leaning towards the Left and it was this Left Wing connection, coupled with the fact that many of the accademics themselves were NUT members, that caused the NUT to support it so strongly.

Unfortunately, the post -war creaping advance of Socialism meant that no one in authority was prepared to stand up and defend the tradional teaching theories and a lot of teachers that tried to found themselves not only without jobs, but very often without the support of their union!

It is not as if there were not warnings that the adoption of these methods was not going to cause trouble. The saga of the ILEA's William Tyndall School showed how adoption of modern methods can lead to educational chaos and anarchy within a school.

And this was only because a couple of strongly minded, left leaning, teachers, strongly committed to modern methods, managed to undermine the authority of not only a weak temporary head, but a local education authority beset by it's own problems.

There is also a lesson on the use of language here. "Modern," "Child Centred," "Progressive," "Liberal," "Forward Looking" are all terms used to describe the approaches that were put forward from the late '50s onwards, which immediately gave the educational progressives the moral high ground and the impression that their opponents were, at the very least, "Old Fashioned" or "Out Dated."

The fact that many of the progressive reforms, particularly in the teaching of reading, have consistantly failed is only now officially being recognised.

The damage our children have suffered will be with us for many years to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Cats
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 08:49 AM

Rog Peek ~ You have taken your first quote from the NUT website and they have chosen not to be part of the negotiating body in the Social Partnership. They are not one of the negotiating unions, that is their choice and I respect that. I have to say the STRB recommendations were not in line with the government's recommendations but were accepted by the government because all the other teacher unions and STRB had negotiated and accepted them. The government also had to go along with the negotiations being reopened because of the re-opener clause which the SP unions had written in. Do you really think the government would have agreed to reopening and re negotiating a pay deal, which they have to abide by if agreed by STRB, if we were at their bidding? I think not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:38 PM

""Its recommendations, however, rarely vary from the Government's wishes Well what a surprise!""

True, and from experience, on the rare occasions when the recomendation exceeds the governments wishes, they simply ignore it and pay less.

Perhaps it is time to ditch the STRB, and and establish a transparently independent body, but nanny government won't have that.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Peace
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 08:07 PM

sapper82: I hear you. And I'm not in total disagreement with you. I think our schools--Canada, US, England, etc.,--ARE suffering from too many political decisions that do not have the best interests of the kids at heart. Those political decisions come from teachers' associations, unions and government. I understand too that school boards--what y'all would call boards of governors--are interested in things that do not necessarily include the best for children. I don't know where that leaves us--just s'long as we're not fighting with each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Cats
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 01:53 AM

But this time STRB's wishes were not in line with the government and we got what STRB said, not what the government said. We also have the reopener clause which the government did not want us to have but which we have and which we have used.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:40 AM

"I understand too that school boards--what y'all would call boards of governors--are interested in things that do not necessarily include the best for children."

I am one of those school governors, on the board of the local primary school. My child no longer attends it, but I'm there til 2010, and I will continue to fight for the best for all the children. However, my 'speciality' as it were, is the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) and integration of differently abled children into mainstream education. This means that perforce, I have to learn and study things that are not obviously 'child centred' but can be applied to general school running.

I can't answer for other schools but to my knowledge, not one of our board members, be they teacher, parent or community member has anything but the interests of the school and its children as a priority. In every item for discussion, be it finance, building maintenance or how many scissors there are, it is always for the benefit of the pupils and the support of the teaching staff.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: jonm
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:52 AM

I have to agree with LtS - in my experience of working with school and college governors, and briefly as a parent governor and staff governor (different times, of course), all are volunteers with solely the best interests of the school and students at heart.

A lot of effort goes into minimising the impact of the latest government initiative on the students. All those lawyers who believe they know education better than either experienced professional educators or the experience of history, then try and impose ridiculous "measures of success" which ineviatably impede the teaching and learning process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Peace
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:56 AM

I congratulate you both for being on Boards that do care. I am aware of some that do NOT, and thus my post. It was not in any way meant to slag ALL Boards of Governors or all School Boards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:13 PM

There's a point to be made about that, Peace.

I think there may be considerable differences between UK school governors and US or Canadian school boards.

Lts and Jonm are I think talking about the British setup, and they are absolutely right in saying that the majority of our school governors are prepared to fight for what is best for the pupils.

Also, they tend not to involve thmselves in certain peripheral issues which in the US at least tend to be very contentious.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Peace
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:22 PM

Thank you, Don. I stand corrected and do apologize to both B of G memebers and anyone else I have slagged unintentionally. Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM

An MP has claimed that the learning disorder dyslexia does not exist and is merely a "cruel fiction" to cover up poor teaching. Skip related content

Graham Stringer, MP for Blackley in Manchester, said it was "wicked" to label children as dyslexic because they were confused by bad teaching methods.

"The education establishment, rather than admit that their eclectic and incomplete methods for instruction are at fault, have invented a brain disorder called dyslexia," Stringer wrote in a column for the Manchester Confidential website.

"Dyslexia is a cruel fiction. The sooner it is consigned to the same dustbin of history, the better."

About 6 million people suffer from the condition, according to the charity Dyslexia Action.

It said that it was not the same as having reading problems and was a combination of difficulties that could also affect spelling, writing, maths or memory.

"Once again dyslexia seems to be making the headlines for all the wrong reasons," said Shirley Cramer, the charity's chief executive.

"It is frustrating that the focus should be on whether dyslexia exists or not, when there is so much evidence to support that it does."

Stringer said if dyslexia existed then countries such as Nicaragua and South Korea would not have nearly 100 percent literacy rates.

He said a scheme in Scotland's West Dunbartonshire area, which used to have a literacy problem among secondary school pupils, had eliminated illiteracy by teaching children to read using the synthetic phonics method.

"It is time that the dyslexia industry was killed off and we recognised that there are well known methods for teaching everybody to read and write," he said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:57 AM

I have just come back from teaching a group of very intelligent, potentially high flying, dyslexic students. Dyslexia is not just about words and ability or inability to read them. It is also about audio sequential memory, visual memory, linguistic skills, organisational skills, thinking differently and seeing things in 3D and huge amounts more. Such a pity he did not do his homework before opening his mouth!


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:05 AM

I've been reading up on Graham Stringer MP and cannot find anything that indicates he has any qualifications, expertise or experience in this area to allow him to make such a sweeping statement. If anybody has a link that indicates otherwise I would be grateful if they would post it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: paula t
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:04 PM

As a teacher, I'm sick and tired of MPs , business leaders etc.- who have never taught in their lives- spouting about education.Too much credence is given to their views and we are expected to change teaching methods and the curriculum to suit their current "fad".It is making me feel increasingly frustrated and angry.

I believe that dyslexia does indeed exist, and have met many young people with dyslexia who have had to work very very hard to achieve their full potential.The problem has been overdiagnosis. A great number of parents are too quick to label their child "dyslexic" when they are in fact underachieving for other reasons.I don't even want to get started on that one!(They can usually find some organisation to give them the diagnosis they want - and usually for a fee.) I have known parents demand that their child be given a label, as if that will make everything better.It is a greatly overused word.

Unfortunately this means that schools are trying to spread their resources too thin, and the genuinely dyslexic children may find they do not get all the help they need.This idiot is doing those children a great disservice and he should be made to apologise to them .

Sorry to sound so bitter and twisted, but it's about time someone asked a few teachers what they think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM

People who work in the field of educational have to be qualified. Those who work with dyslexics and dyslexia similarly. In other words, they need to become knowledgable and to some degree 'expert' to be able to practise. I wonder what qualifications Graham Stringer has had to achieve to become an MP?


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Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: paula t
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM

Being able to talk from various places - and not always from his mouth!


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