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England's National Musical-Instrument?

GUEST,Walkaboutsverse 15 Apr 08 - 05:09 AM
Peace 15 Apr 08 - 05:15 AM
Georgiansilver 15 Apr 08 - 05:17 AM
The Borchester Echo 15 Apr 08 - 05:23 AM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 15 Apr 08 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 15 Apr 08 - 05:28 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 05:31 AM
treewind 15 Apr 08 - 05:32 AM
Peace 15 Apr 08 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,PMB 15 Apr 08 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 15 Apr 08 - 05:48 AM
The Borchester Echo 15 Apr 08 - 05:53 AM
greg stephens 15 Apr 08 - 05:58 AM
John MacKenzie 15 Apr 08 - 06:03 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Apr 08 - 06:05 AM
Les in Chorlton 15 Apr 08 - 06:24 AM
GUEST,glueman 15 Apr 08 - 06:28 AM
John MacKenzie 15 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM
Les in Chorlton 15 Apr 08 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 15 Apr 08 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 15 Apr 08 - 06:37 AM
John MacKenzie 15 Apr 08 - 06:39 AM
GUEST,Jon 15 Apr 08 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,LTS pretending to work 15 Apr 08 - 06:57 AM
Ernest 15 Apr 08 - 07:05 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 07:18 AM
Peace 15 Apr 08 - 07:20 AM
Les in Chorlton 15 Apr 08 - 07:24 AM
GUEST,PMB 15 Apr 08 - 07:24 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 07:41 AM
Mr Red 15 Apr 08 - 07:59 AM
John MacKenzie 15 Apr 08 - 08:25 AM
r.padgett 15 Apr 08 - 08:41 AM
Les in Chorlton 15 Apr 08 - 08:41 AM
Effsee 15 Apr 08 - 08:58 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM
Snuffy 15 Apr 08 - 09:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Apr 08 - 10:37 AM
George Papavgeris 15 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 15 Apr 08 - 11:28 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,John from Elsie`s Band 15 Apr 08 - 11:37 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,WalkaboutVerse 15 Apr 08 - 11:48 AM
The Borchester Echo 15 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 12:06 PM
Nerd 15 Apr 08 - 12:09 PM
ard mhacha 15 Apr 08 - 12:11 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse 15 Apr 08 - 12:28 PM
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Subject: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: GUEST,Walkaboutsverse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:09 AM

It's not difficult to find, e.g., the national instrument of, e.g., Wales or Scotland - triple-harp and highland-pipes, respectively - but I haven't been able to find that of England...although I have, however, compiled a list of "INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND" (davidfranks.741.com).


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:15 AM

Here ya go.


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:17 AM

If you want to think about instruments most closely associated with England....what about the word 'Brass'


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:23 AM

The English concertina, invented by Charles Wheatstone.


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:26 AM

Thanks a lot, Peace - and so sorry for the two "e.g."s in my (not DB's) header!!
And thanks, Georgiansilver - I'll consider adding brass-instruments to my list.
But I'm still non the wiser?...it (along with many of our fine Englsih traditions) must have been pushed well under the carpet by the pro-monarchists...


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:28 AM

Thanks, Diane...I was thinking that or the recorder/English flute...may I ask of your sources?


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:31 AM

I still maintain that it's the Stylophone - invented in 1967 by Brian Jarvis.

Walkaboutsverse - I think Georgiansilver might have a point actually; be sure to get down to Durham for the Miners' Gala this year...


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: treewind
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:32 AM

The concertina has a claim, being the only instrument invented by an Englishman.

The instrument most commonly associated with English folk music and less with any other type of music was the Hohner pokerwork D/G melodeon for many years.

I reckon GS is on the money with his brass bands too.

Let's not forget that England has a church-based choral singing tradition that is the envy of other countries, and a bell-ringing tradition that is uniquely English, not only church bells but method ringing on handbells.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: ENGLAND'S NATIONAL MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:32 AM

Ya know, WV, that's a heck of a question. I think Diane aced it, but the recorder might be a contender. The problem is that whatever instrument it is would likely have to be harmonic to provide chord structure as background for the song. The lute WAS popular, but not so much these days. I hope you find an answer.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:46 AM

The fiddle. Every soldier had one in his knapsack.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:48 AM

Thanks, again...for those who are wondering, I'd had this discussion with Sedayne, above, and am glad I've opened it up...
Also, my two mini-encyclopedias credit Charles Wheatstone with inventing the mouth organ/harmonica, as well as the English Concertina...but on the web, sites usually say Germany..?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:53 AM

Carl Uhlig invented the diatonic Anglo-German concertina in the 1830s, presumably after seeing Wheatstone's English instrument. But Wheatstone didn't patent his invention till later.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:58 AM

Well there is the English guitar, a different animal from the Spanish variety, with a different tuning (CEGCEG), but that has passed into history.Historically the pipes and the fiddle have been the dominant folk instrument, but that applies equally to all our neighbours.The concertina and the Northumbrian pipes are the nearest things we've got to specifically English instruments, though whether that makes them suitable to be the national instrument is another question.
Personally, I would nominate the spoons, enlivener of many a dull session when the old guy in the corner starts flailing away to the annoyance of the earnest folkies who have come to practise their polkas glumly.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:03 AM

"But I'm still non the wiser?...it (along with many of our fine Englsih traditions) must have been pushed well under the carpet by the pro-monarchists..."

What on earth does that sentence mean?


G


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:05 AM

I'd have thought the fiddle would have a fair claim. The factthat pther countries play it as well should signify - that goes for mkst instruments.

Or how about the clogs?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:24 AM

The bicycle


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:28 AM

The hunting horn. Alternatively the Telecaster. Not English by birth but naturalised by close association with the rock of ages known as Keef and every half decent garge band since.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM

The dividers?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:32 AM

The Man o war?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:33 AM

To PMB and McGrath -
"Playing THE Fiddle?
There are many different fiddles from many different lands – for example, the Chinese erhu fiddle, the Norwegian hardanger fiddle and, the one most in the West now play, the Italian fiddle/violin." (

To John - you don't think English culture is kept down by those wishing to keep the UK together/English nationalism down?

To Greg - I think you mean the English cittern/guitar, yes?, also on my above-mentioned list and, apparently, found in nearly every tavern and barber-shop in England during the 17th century...I've only seen Jez Lowe playing one, thus far...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:37 AM

Sorry - that quote was from me at the same place as above.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:39 AM

No mate, I don't think anybody is keeping English culture down, apathy on the part of the majority is what has/was/is destroying it. Even then it can never be totally destroyed, merely become even more of a specialised interest than it is now.
It is after all a minority culture, and rapidly becoming even more so.

G


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:50 AM

Charles Wheatstone with inventing the mouth organ/harmonica, as well as the English Concertina...but on the web, sites usually say Germany..?

Wikipedia says the first harmonicas were sold in Vienna before 1824.

Looking through the site, it seems there was a bit of an explosion in free reed designs in Europe in the early 19th C. See here, although the free reed concept is a lot older.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:57 AM

Comb and paper?

LTS


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ernest
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:05 AM

Finger in the ear?

running for cover
Ernest


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:18 AM

I often dream about playing a cream coloured Fender Telecaster, complete with ashtray, even though I've never owned such a thing. Does this make it a Jungian Archetype or a Freudian Subliminal Phallus? Odd thing is - I can't play the guitar at all.

The free-reed concept is indeed a lot older, being invented by the Chinese & common in instruments played in the time of Confucius, being brought to Europe in 1777 by Amiot.

As for fiddles, as I pointed out in an earlier myspace correspondence with Walkaboutsverse:

When people say fiddle they're invariably referring to the violin. The word has an interesting (complex & by no means fully understood) etymology, but in terms of pragmatics & usage it would seem to derive from a verb rather than a noun - a verb which at last yields the noun violin, but it is interesting that in modern musical usage fiddle exists as both a noun and a verb.

That said, the earliest iconographical evidences would suggest the first bowed instruments were, in fact, lyres (i.e. crwth, juohikko, talharp etc.) rather than lutes (i.e. violin, viol, vielle, rebec etc.) - but no bowed lyre is ever called a fiddle!

Fiddle is an English word; it is only English speakers who would call an Erhu a Chinese Fiddle, likewise the Karandeniz Kemence a Black Sea Fiddle, or a Hardingfele a Hardanger Fiddle.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:20 AM

"I often dream about playing a cream coloured Fender Telecaster, complete with ashtray, even though I've never owned such a thing."

I dream about it, too. I did own one. Traded it for a Framus acoustic back in 1964. That's how I broke my leg. I was kickin' me arse!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:24 AM

When did reeds get into bagpipes?

I think a good argument can be mounted, if you excuse the pun, for the important contribution made to the collection of songs by the bicycle, although clearly not with out a bicyclist. Probably more important than those free reed instruments although he Anglo-German Concertina would would fit well with the evolution of the monarchy.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:24 AM

Fiddle is an English word; it is only English speakers who would call...a Hardingfele a Hardanger Fiddle.

fele = fiddle, no?


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:41 AM

The reeds came first; bags & bladders were added to reed-pipes & shawms to more easily facilitate circular breathing; then came drones, though not all bagpipes have them.

Fele=fiddle, yes - but then again so does violin, or so I'm told!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:59 AM

As an Electronic Enginner I have to vote for Mr Wheatstone.

He had a shop in Gloucester you know.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:25 AM

Love his bridge Mr Red


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: r.padgett
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:41 AM

I would have thought the most popular with folkies is the D/G Melodeon, the 'tina, and the guitar with capo

Ray


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:41 AM

I've got a bridge but not a concertina


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Effsee
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:58 AM

It's obvious...the Trumpet! 'cos they're always blowing it!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM

Here's one - what's the International Musical Instrument?

I'd vote for the Jew's Harp, given its myriad ingenious & indigenous manifestations the world o'er.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:09 AM

Posthorn


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:37 AM

I'm sure I posted this but t'iterweb monsters seem to have made off with it!

Raddle-drum(sp?) Alleged forerunner of the bodhran - Wasn't that an English rural thing.

Pipe and tabor? Used for Morris in 1600 as per Kemps nine daes wonder.

Or how about anything you can march into battle (or retreat!) with:-)

Little snippet about Wheatstone - I was told he invented the linkage system for the modern Stradella bass system on Piano Accordians. But someone could have been pulling my leg. Or pushing my buttons?

Cheers

Dave.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM

When England wants to play a tune of which she can be proud,
she needs an instrument to play that is both shrill and loud.
The concertina is no good, the fiddle is too frail
bodhran and harp are foreign, the melodeon's gone stale.
Guitars are ten a penny, the piano is too grand,
you need something that plays classic, folk, pop and brass band.
The answer is so obvious, on this I'll no more drone:
The English National Instrument is the Mobile Phone!


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:28 AM

Harping on mobiles, George, I came across an interesting instrument the other day that relates to Treewind's (above) English bell-ringing tradition: I was, and still am, looking for a lap-top acoustic keyboard (I do have Argos's cheapest/smallest electrical one, which I do play on my lap whist watching TV), and came across the bell lyre - a portable glockenspiel, with a lyre-shpaed frame, strapped-on by some members of marching bands.
I'd heard, Dave, that the pipe and tabor were the original Morris instruments (seen a chap playing them at The Morpeth Gathering, a couple of times) but it was/is also well used for dance music on the continent.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:30 AM

LOL, George - Mine plays Stranger in Paradise, which is about right living here on the Fylde coast, basking beneath the palm-trees...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,John from Elsie`s Band
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:37 AM

Diane,
       Am I correct in believing that Wheatstone`s daughter had much to do with the inventing or development of the coffee percolator or caffatiere? I`m sure I saw something about it on Duff-"Whatsits" science programme.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:39 AM

Pipe and Taboring is pretty much universal, at least as far as planet earth is concerned, with the most developed traditions existing in France and South America.

For a little acoustic keyboard, try a melodica with a blow pipe...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:48 AM

...but for accompaniment, Sedayne.
Speaking of harping - also saw the English Dital Harp at Morpeth?...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM

Hi John, I don't know I wouldn't be at all surprised.
What a resourceful family!
As a sideline to inventing the most wonderful instrument, Charles made great strides in developing the telegraph, the telephone and making electricity go faster.
Would we have had an internet by now without him?
With him in charge of Virgin Media instead of Mr Branson I'm sure my broadband would run like greased lightning.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:06 PM

Fair point; there is a miniature Indian harmonium with a hand pump that often comes up from time to time on ebay, though they tend to get bid up pretty fast. I did a gig recently with Martin Archer who was playing one - sounded beautiful.

Note the provenance here - that this is very much an Indian adaptation of an European instrument (see Harmonium thread elsewhere).

Otherwise, those cheap Chinese 8-bass accordions are good inexpensive slightly-out-of-tune fun; I've got one myself & I've even played it in public to accompany 'The Fox Jumps Over the Parsons Gate'. A bit loud for watching the telly though, unless you've got really sympathetic neighbours. That said, when I'm watching TV I often practise muted scales on my pocket trumpet...


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:09 PM

How about the English Horn (which is neither English nor a horn)!

Fiddle is not really an exclusively English word. There's Fiedel in German and Fiddel in Danish, for example--as close as one could reasonably expect. All of these words are technically cognate with viol, violin being a diminutive form from Italian violino. I don't think it's farfetched to think of people in other languages calling the erhu an example of a Chinese viol, using whatever their cognate term might be.

I don't think the word fiddle turns up in old English, but "fiddler" does, with an "edh" in place of the double d: fi{edh}elere. The medieval Latin cognate of fiddle was vitula, and no one is sure whether the word was imported independently into all the Scandinavian and Germanic languages from medieval Latin, borrowed into several and spread to others from those, or whether there was an Old Teutonic original from which the Germanic forms derive. In any case, it is the same word with different consonant and vowel changes leading to its different pronunciations throughout Europe.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:11 PM

The war drum.


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM

The English Horn, known in England as the Cor Anglais


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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:28 PM

To Nerd - I agree, but the English horn and the rest of the oboe family have often been used by (Romantic) English composers, yes?
To Sedayne - yet another qualification: I play the piano-keys with two hands (I first played the computer keyboard using software called KB Piano, then transferred my "touch-typing technique"! to the piano keys). There are keyboard glockenspiels/celestas...but lap-top/for singarounds?...I wonder if anyone has ever hooked-up the Northumbrian bagpipe kit to a melodica...a strange harmonium, I guess..?!


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