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BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far

Rabbi-Sol 14 Apr 08 - 01:41 PM
Donuel 14 Apr 08 - 01:47 PM
Ebbie 14 Apr 08 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,lox 14 Apr 08 - 01:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Apr 08 - 01:54 PM
katlaughing 14 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM
Don Firth 14 Apr 08 - 02:11 PM
Rabbi-Sol 14 Apr 08 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Apr 08 - 02:30 PM
Bee 14 Apr 08 - 02:35 PM
Rabbi-Sol 14 Apr 08 - 02:37 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Apr 08 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Apr 08 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM
Ebbie 14 Apr 08 - 03:38 PM
Donuel 14 Apr 08 - 03:48 PM
Rabbi-Sol 14 Apr 08 - 03:58 PM
Thompson 14 Apr 08 - 04:04 PM
CarolC 14 Apr 08 - 04:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Apr 08 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Apr 08 - 04:15 PM
Seamus Kennedy 14 Apr 08 - 04:18 PM
Rabbi-Sol 14 Apr 08 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Apr 08 - 04:24 PM
kendall 14 Apr 08 - 04:34 PM
CarolC 14 Apr 08 - 04:44 PM
catspaw49 14 Apr 08 - 04:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Apr 08 - 06:15 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Apr 08 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Apr 08 - 06:31 PM
CarolC 14 Apr 08 - 07:08 PM
M.Ted 14 Apr 08 - 07:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Apr 08 - 07:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Apr 08 - 08:04 PM
GUEST, Richard Bridge 14 Apr 08 - 08:23 PM
Sandra in Sydney 14 Apr 08 - 08:31 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 14 Apr 08 - 11:57 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 15 Apr 08 - 12:03 AM
M.Ted 15 Apr 08 - 01:29 AM
Bryn Pugh 15 Apr 08 - 04:41 AM
GUEST,PMB 15 Apr 08 - 05:16 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Apr 08 - 06:15 AM
Bryn Pugh 15 Apr 08 - 06:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Apr 08 - 06:31 AM
George Papavgeris 15 Apr 08 - 08:49 AM
Midchuck 15 Apr 08 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,lox 15 Apr 08 - 10:12 AM
Ebbie 15 Apr 08 - 10:30 AM
Uncle_DaveO 15 Apr 08 - 10:45 AM
Janice in NJ 15 Apr 08 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,lox 15 Apr 08 - 10:56 AM
GUEST,john f weldon 15 Apr 08 - 11:16 AM
Bryn Pugh 15 Apr 08 - 11:29 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 15 Apr 08 - 12:20 PM
CarolC 15 Apr 08 - 12:28 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Apr 08 - 01:07 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Apr 08 - 01:17 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Apr 08 - 01:24 PM
CarolC 15 Apr 08 - 01:37 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 15 Apr 08 - 01:38 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Apr 08 - 01:42 PM
CarolC 15 Apr 08 - 01:44 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 15 Apr 08 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Apr 08 - 01:58 PM
Wolfgang 15 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 15 Apr 08 - 02:14 PM
closet-folkie 15 Apr 08 - 02:23 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 15 Apr 08 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Apr 08 - 03:14 PM
katlaughing 15 Apr 08 - 03:38 PM
sapper82 15 Apr 08 - 04:06 PM
Emma B 15 Apr 08 - 04:48 PM
Uncle_DaveO 15 Apr 08 - 04:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Apr 08 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,Chief Chaos 15 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,meself 15 Apr 08 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Chief Chaos 15 Apr 08 - 06:33 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 15 Apr 08 - 07:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Apr 08 - 08:23 PM
Bonecruncher 15 Apr 08 - 09:08 PM
Amos 15 Apr 08 - 10:56 PM
Bryn Pugh 16 Apr 08 - 04:27 AM
GUEST,lox 16 Apr 08 - 06:10 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 16 Apr 08 - 07:11 AM
Bryn Pugh 16 Apr 08 - 07:12 AM
Janice in NJ 16 Apr 08 - 08:09 AM
closet-folkie 16 Apr 08 - 08:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Apr 08 - 08:28 AM
George Papavgeris 16 Apr 08 - 08:28 AM
Bryn Pugh 16 Apr 08 - 09:00 AM
Uncle_DaveO 16 Apr 08 - 09:56 AM
CarolC 16 Apr 08 - 11:03 AM
CarolC 16 Apr 08 - 11:11 AM
Bryn Pugh 16 Apr 08 - 11:19 AM
Stilly River Sage 16 Apr 08 - 01:36 PM
CarolC 16 Apr 08 - 01:47 PM
Ebbie 16 Apr 08 - 01:50 PM
CarolC 16 Apr 08 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 16 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM
Ebbie 16 Apr 08 - 02:43 PM
CarolC 16 Apr 08 - 02:56 PM
CarolC 16 Apr 08 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 16 Apr 08 - 03:26 PM
CarolC 16 Apr 08 - 03:32 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 16 Apr 08 - 03:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Apr 08 - 03:40 PM
CarolC 16 Apr 08 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 16 Apr 08 - 04:00 PM
kendall 16 Apr 08 - 07:46 PM
Bobert 16 Apr 08 - 08:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 16 Apr 08 - 09:45 PM
CarolC 16 Apr 08 - 09:55 PM
Bryn Pugh 17 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM
Emma B 17 Apr 08 - 06:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 08 - 07:38 AM
Janice in NJ 17 Apr 08 - 07:26 PM
Bryn Pugh 18 Apr 08 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,lox 18 Apr 08 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,Thornton 09 Sep 08 - 09:50 AM
Paul Burke 09 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM
Emma B 09 Sep 08 - 10:18 AM
Mark Ross 09 Sep 08 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Social Worker 09 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Sep 08 - 11:34 AM
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Subject: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:41 PM

CARPENTERSVILLE, Ill (AP) An Illinois delegate for presidential candidate Barack Obama resigned Tuesday after she used the word "monkeys" to describe black children playing in a tree.

Linda Ramirez-Sliwinski, a trustee in the Chicago suburb of Carpentersville, was issued a $75 ticket for disorderly conduct after neighbors complained to police. She says the word wasn't meant racially and she will fight the ticket.

"Given the incident, Linda Ramirez-Sliwinski is stepping down as a delegate and will be replaced," said Obama spokeswoman Amy Brundage.

The incident took place Saturday, when two children were playing in a tree next door to Ramirez-Sliwinski's house.

She said the parents were outside supervising the children, but she went over and told them to get out of the tree because she was concerned about the boys' safety and because the small magnolia tree was being damaged.

The father of one of the boys told her it was none of her business, she said, and "I calmly said the tree is not there for them to be climbing in there like monkeys."

The mother of one boy called police.

Cmdr. Michael Kilbourne said a ticket was issued because the ordinance bans conduct that disturbs or alarms people, and one of the boys told police he was scared by her comment.

Ramirez-Sliwinski says she doesn't plan to run for another term on the village board.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:47 PM

A DC City assembly man was forced to resign when he used the word NIGGARDLY to describe a puny budget.

It was said by a black assmbly woman that while she did not know the exact meaning of the word, he should have known better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:48 PM

We've all become sensitized - which is good - but sometimes we become overly so. 'Monkeys' has been the term for that kind of activity forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:50 PM

The monkey thing is indeed a nonsense. I call my daughter a cheeky monkey from time to time. I use my language even handedly with her friends, black or white (her two best friends are mixed race and african).

Sometimes I consider the possibility that someone witnessing it might take offence, but I reflect - on what grounds would I be discriminating ... race? and then I think - what a load of bollocks! And then I return to referring affectionately to children I love.

The problem here is that the woman who made the gaffe (?) took it on herself to start telling parents how to look after their kids. Parents don't like that kind of thing.

I hope she wins her appeal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:54 PM

Sounds like someone is playing silly buggers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM

In some thread we discussed the children's song which starts with "five little monkeys jumping on the bed." I think it was Azizi who objected to the use of "monkeys," but don't quote me on that. I cannot find the reference I made to it.

"TV's Craig Ferguson" calls his audience his little "cheeky monkeys" all of the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:11 PM

niggardly circa 1366, nygart, of uncertain origin. The suffix suggests Fr. origin (cf. dastard), but the root word is probably related to O.N. hnggr "stingy," from P.Gmc. *khnauwjaz (cf. Swed. njugg "close, careful," Ger. genau "precise, exact"), and to O.E. hneaw "stingy."

Absolutely nothing to do with race.

And as to referring to kids as "monkeys," I think that says more about the person who takes offense than it does about the person who uses the word in this context.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:17 PM

She was describing the activity as opposed to describing the children themselves. The parents just took it the wrong way.

                                                    SOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:30 PM

Of course you were there and witnessed the incident yourself?

The article says that the kid said that the woman's comments scared him.

It seems to me she may have been louder and pushier than she is letting on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bee
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:35 PM

'Monkey' comment aside, what was she doing going to her neighbour's house to chastise children who were being supervised by their parents?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:37 PM

Jack,
       It does not take much to scare little kids. When I was that age and my neighbor yelled at me for playing on his lawn I was also very scared. But my mother did not call the cops on him.

                                                      SOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:09 PM

So, maybe she owns the property and rents it? Maybe someone else owns it and rents it and she watches it for them? There could be all sorts of reasons for not letting children climb in a tree that the reporter neglected to ask about or report.

I regularly tell parents they should make their children sit down in the shopping cart in grocery stores. Those concrete floors, with lineoleum flooring, are deadly when children fall on them head-first from cart level. Mostly people see the problem and address the child to sit, but I've had people make rude remarks even after I lunged to stop a child from falling on the floor. It isn't acceptable to let your child ride through the aisle on the other side of the register from you, and it isn't the clerks job to look out for your toddler. If you're writing a check and the groceries are in the cart bagged, it isn't acceptable to then push the cart out of the way (and out of reach) of someone who is paying attention to the child. Instead of being grateful that someone was paying attention and rescuing a child, one mother got rude and abusive. I should have called the state and reported her. I think I told her so.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:12 PM

If I have read the article correctly, this woman was not on her own property. The incident took place "next door". Driving people off your own private property is one thing. Going to someone else's property and scaring children is certainly within my definition of disorderly conduct. Since she knew the parents were present, she certainly had no business directly addressing the parents and telling them to get out of the tree.

The whole monkey thing poses a bit of a dilemma for me. I like monkeys, I like apes, I like the idea of monkeys and apes. For me to call someone a monkey is a compliment. Having grown up in Canada, I have not been exposed to the full scope of racial conflict and degradation in this country. My wife has reminded me a couple of times that because of this history, I should keep the "monkey" comments to myself when talking to our black friends.

Its not a big deal to refrain from calling people names that they find offensive. It is also not polite to compare another person's children to animals, especially to describe behavior that you yourself find offensive.

If she had called them possums instead of monkeys, all other things being equal, she probably still would have got the ticket.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM

she certainly had no business directly addressing the CHILDREN and telling them to get out of the tree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:38 PM

It's a different world from what it used to be- and we as a people have made it that way.

Years ago - about when the changes began, I would say - a friend with four boys was telling me about an experience her kids had had.

They were playing in a fruit orchard outside town and a neighboring man came out and told them to stop, they were breaking branches.

Ond of the boys said to the neighbor, Is this your orchard?

The man said, No.

The kids told him, Then it's none of your business.

My friend agreed with her boys.

I was shocked. That is not how I was brought up, nor how I raised my daughter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:48 PM

This is a job for Super Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:58 PM

The fact that Obama had her removed as a delegate speaks volumes about how we have to think twice before we say anything that might ruffle someone's feathers.

                                                      SOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:04 PM

Well, it sounds a bit silly to me that anyone should take offence at their kid being called a naughty little monkey when climbing trees.

*But*, I have the luxury of thinking it sounds silly, *because* I don't come from a race of people who were demeaned as being inferior because 'monkey-like'.

So I think she was rude, and her removal was correct. If not for rudeness, then for having an ability to put her foot in her mouth that's no help to a political candidate. And I speak as one who has that power in, umm, spades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:07 PM

Of course the tree is there for them to be climbing in. That's what yard trees are for. Kids belong in trees and trees need kids to be climbing in them. That's a fact. That woman doesn't know anything about either kids or trees. And that's all I have to say on that subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:15 PM

So the idea is, you see some little kids and you are worried they might fall? Nothing to do with you , it's not your tree and they aren't your kids. Keep schtum - blame the parents when they break their necks, don't blame yourself...

For myself, that's an attitude I would describe as quite remarkably incorrect, morally, socially, and politically.

Which may not be in fact what was involved - we probably have a very inadequate version of whatever went on here. But my comment is directed at the attitude I summarised there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:15 PM

>>Well, it sounds a bit silly to me that anyone should take offence at their kid being called a naughty little monkey when climbing trees.<<

It doesn't actually say in the article that that was why offense was taken. I don't have kids, but if I was supervising my kid and some other adult started yelling at them rather than talking to me, I would take offense. If I then told the lady to mind her own business and she started to call my children animals, of any kind, I would call the police and ask them to deal with it rather than escalate the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:18 PM

Years ago (in the '80's I think) sportscaster Howard Cosell got into a heap of trouble when he referred to Washington Redskins wide receiver Alvin Garrett as a 'little monkey'.

Isn't 'Washington Redskins' also non-PC?

Seamus


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:23 PM

3 years ago the basketball team of St. John's University in Jamaica, Queens, NY was forced to change their nickname from Redmen to Red Storm because it was non-PC.

                                                   SOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:24 PM

>>Isn't 'Washington Redskins' also non-PC?<<

I would say so.

How about changing it to the Washington Chicken Hawks?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:34 PM

So, what's wrong with watching your mouth? Does anyone have a right to say whatever crosses their mind? What about basic manners?

Former President Theodor Roosevelt once called the Japanese "Little yellow monkeys". Would anyone think he was just being playful?

Times change, people change, some grow up and become civilized. The rest bitch about rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:44 PM

So the idea is, you see some little kids and you are worried they might fall? Nothing to do with you , it's not your tree and they aren't your kids. Keep schtum - blame the parents when they break their necks, don't blame yourself...

No, the idea is that if you see kids climbing in trees, you leave them alone because that's where they belong. I spent most of my childhood up in trees. Nobody ever told me to get out of them. And I did fall out of one... once, and broke my arm and got right back up in the trees as soon as the cast came off. My son spent most of his childhood up in trees as well, only he never fell out of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:48 PM

How about we send some Mormon splinter group to Canada and put them in charge of the seal hunt. They can kill the males, fuck the females, and start a new species...... a sort of sea monkey. Then we send this woman up to protest the whole thing while Hillary takes over ramming her with a Coast Guard Cutter and unknown but dastardly elements of US foreign policy plant squib charges on the ice.

Hey....Wortha' try and would end a lot of threads around here..............


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:15 PM

I wrote a post here, but when I tried to send it up came a notice saying the thread was closed, so I scrapped it. Now the thread's open again - I wish whoever's pulling the levers could make up their minds...

Not that it seemed like a thread that particularly called for closure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:20 PM

You don't have enough information to say these kids were on their own tree, and you don't have enough information to know that these were responsible parents, but we were told that they were liable to break the tree.

Maybe they were in a yard that didn't belong to them either, that was what I was getting at.

The usual suspects are in a mood to argue, so this thread is a gonner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:31 PM

>>

From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:20 PM

You don't have enough information to say these kids were on their own tree, and you don't have enough information to know that these were responsible parents, but we were told that they were liable to break the tree. <<

Did anyone here say the kids were in their own tree? The article says that the tree was next door. The point being that she was yelling at somebody else's kids in somebody else's tree. If she was an official member of the tree police, I doubt that she would have got the ticket.

Please not that, the article is careful to say that she got the ticket for scaring the kid. Not for telling his parents that he was a monkey.

Tempest in a teapot really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:08 PM

This is how a yard tree is supposed to look...

http://www.alcdv.com/kidtree.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:20 PM

In case anyone cares--Neighbors Bury the Hatchet


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:56 PM

"I calmly said the tree is not there for them to be climbing in there like monkeys." If that's true, there's nothing in it to offend and nothing to apologise for. Monkeys do climb trees, and it's perfectly reasonable to use the term for children clambering around in the branches.

Of course there could have been more to it than that, for all we know. When we focus in on particular cases like this and start arguing back and forth about them I think we make a mistake, because we are arguing from ignorance. We'd do better to use them as a chance to explore the principles involved - in this case, what responsibility do we have for our neighbours children, or for the environment (eg trees in the street), and what kind of restrictions should we impose on our use of language.

So far as offending people is concerned, I think the right thing to do is to try to avoid offending people who don't deserve it, even when we think they are over-sensitive. And at the same time we should try to avoid taking offense unless we are sure offence is intended, even when we think that what is said is open to an offensive interpretation.

And if anyone ever tells our children off we should take a good look at whether they have good reason to do so before indignantly defending them. That's one of the implications of "It takes a village to raise a child".


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:04 PM

Well, these monkeys in a tree do look not that dissimilar to the children in a tree in Carol's link. And both the monkeys and the children look as if they are where they belong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:23 PM

Kids are supposed to be in trees? Trees need kids in them? None of a watcher's business to stop children doing wrong (damaging a tree, risking harm to themselves)?

Cuckoo!

Cuckoo!


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:31 PM

speaking of niggardly - many many years ago I remember reading about an incident where the person not knowing what a word meant lead to death/injury. An older man was telling a woman she looked beautiful (pulchritudinous), she & her husband thought he was calling her a prostitute & the man shot him!

the Dilbert thread from 2003 contained a similar confusion- educator & child abuser.

words!

sandra (who used to climb on monkey bars in the playground & also climbed trees)


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 11:57 PM

Thanks M.Ted.   As is the case with most Mudcat "discussions", most people like to have a knee jerk reaction and never bother checking any facts.   If anyone else chose to do a search, they would have found that the woman and the neighbor had a dispute - she also complained about their "loud music" and their use of city-issued garbage cans.   It seems there was more of a "payback" at work here, and I would bet anything that if this woman choses to fight the ticket, she would win.

There may also be OTHER political motivations at work here. The woman did have some folks who did not care for the stances she took on behalf of immigrants.   You can look it up yourself.

There is NOTHING wrong about telling children to get out of a tree if they are in danger of hurting themselves OR the tree.   There is nothing wrong with being a bit more sensitive about how our words can hurt each other. While I could not possibly know the true story, I would also bet the woman was being honest when she said had no racial motivations when she said it - it was a simple slip. Yet, the feeling of being called a monkey probably DID have a bad impact on the child - and the mother - and there is nothing wrong with bringing it out into the open.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:03 AM

I'm not commenting on this subject until we've heard the tree's point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:29 AM

It is easier than ever to get information on nearly any issue, Ron--but it will never be as easy as simply reacting to the previous post--


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:41 AM

Had I been the parent, here - and I'll admit freely that I have probably only half the story - my attitude would have been the sama as the one I took when an identical thing happened in my back garden, last year.

My eldest grandson was climbing the elm. The neighbour shouted at him to get down. The grandson slung her a deaf 'un (i.e. he ignored her, which is what I'd have done in his place).

Two minutes later the doorbell goes, and there is Nosey Norah, arms and emotions akimbo.

'Do you know there is a child in that tree ?' she says.

'Ooh aye', replies Bryn 'he has my full authority to be there. Now fuck off.'

She did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:16 AM

God made trees for kids to climb. If some get killed in the process, they go straight to Heaven to be with Jesus. If they get maimed, they can be a Good Example of Patient Resignation to us all.

If they weren't peeing and crapping on the good folks on the ground, they weren't behaving like monkeys. Also if they were not attempting to steal food off each other, pick fleas or mate.

If it was someone else's tree, as it must have been because all trees are God's creations, that other person should have removed them safely, because in case of an accident they could have lain on the ground screaming until compensation set in. You must not have an unsafe tree on your property, nor unsafe ground beneath it. Life is all about risk, but someone else must take it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:15 AM

How very proud of yourself you must feel, Bryn. A role model for us all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:20 AM

I wouldn't have posted if I didn't feel inordinately proud of myself, McGrath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:31 AM

That was the impression I got...


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:49 AM

This reminds me of a few years back when amateur dramatics became the norm for soccer players in the English league. You only had to look at a player, and they were writhing on the floor holding whatever part of their anatomy came handiest. And the referees were falling for it in droves and awarding penalties and free kicks.

But the pendulum has swung, and nowadays I have seen people yellow- or even red-carded for such uncalled for dramatics. Perhaps the same will happen eventually with the over-the-top pseudo-sensitivities that some people claim in the name of PC. If it could be proven that the mother bore old grudges and found this an easy way to settle old scores, then she would deserve to be prosecuted herself.

It may yet come to pass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:08 AM

Does anyone have a right to say whatever crosses their mind?

Well, yes, if you take the First Amendment at face value. Just like anyone has a right to own a tactical nuclear weapon if you take the Second at face value.

What about basic manners?

They've gone to hell and gone, obviously. But that's a different issue from peoples' constitutional rights. The idea of the U. S. Government was that if people had inalienable rights under the Constitution, they'd be mature enough to use those rights in a responsible manner. Most people are, or the whole country would collapse into total chaos. We don't really have an effective program for dealing with the minority who aren't.

Or so it seems to me.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:12 AM

Something to bear in mind is that the tree in question is described as being small, unlike the ones in the pictures provided by CarolC

How small? If it were in danger of being seriously damaged then there may have been a case for interference. A small tree should not be considered fair game if that fair gamne involves destroying it.

I think it sounds like a case of a simple political gaffe, in that she is a person attached to politics so she should be more aware of the dangers of using otherwise perfectly innocent language.

There is a possibility that the children may have been effectively vandalizing the tree.

There is a possibility that the parents were just being typical defensive idiots - like the ones who tell you "don't tell me how to bring up my child" when you have just told them what you think about seeing them slap their child in the face.

Some people know the rules and play them in an evil way, like the kids in British schools who know that their teachers have no real authority due their parents telling them so and encouraging them not to take any "sh*t".

So there is a strong chance that an intelligent civic minded person is in trouble because of the refusal of parents to take responsibility of their kids when they are behaving inappropriately.

As McGrath has experienced earlier in this thread, there are those who derive great pride and enjoyment from opportunities to indulge their neanderthal side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:30 AM

I am one of those interfering Nosy Noras.

I often exercise my dog in a small church park with one -count them -one tree. The city grooms the park but it is actually owned by the Russsian Orthodox church abutting. There are homes with several small children on the other side of the street.

One morning the little tree, about the size of a smallish lilac tree, had a major stem broken off near the base of the tree.

A couple of days later there were two youngsters amidst the branches swinging. Living in such proximity I'm sure they felt that this was *their* park.

I told them that this was not the kind of tree meant for climbing and pointed out the broken branch. They were reluctant to get out of the tree and said something about their 'daddy'.

I said, Yes, go ask your daddy. Tell him about the broken branch. He'll tell you that this is not a tree for climbing.

I have no idea whether their father agreed with me but I haven't seen them in it since. However, it's been winter. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:45 AM

I think there's been a number of careless semi-summaries and misquotes and baseless assumptions in this thread.

Yet, the feeling of being called a monkey probably DID have a bad impact on the child

From the article, I don't understand that she called the child a monkey. She referred to the activity as "climbing like monkeys" or something close to that. A great difference there.

There appears to be a disagreement about the tone of the original incident, some Catters taking one side of the incident description (without actual knowledge) and others taking the other side. The neighbors seemingly said she yelled; she said she calmly made her statements. None of us knows which is true.

We don't really know whose tree it was, but some of the posts assume it belongs to the neighbors.

I think there are some further instances, but I don't want to take the time to search the thread to find them; those will do for the purpose.

Yes, we can each infer that this happened or that did; that the tone must have been this or that; but it's important to try to keep our thinking (and our criticism) straight by remembering that these are inferences and assumptions.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:51 AM

Doesn't anyone feel uneasy about the terms "politically correct" and "political correctness"? Aren't they just code words used to belittle, marginalize, and dismiss anything of meaning to ethnic and racial minorities, the LGBT community, feminists, the disabled, and political liberals?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:56 AM

yes - but in my opinion because they can never be accurately defined so the are never really useful.

I use them nowadays to denote the naive practice of trying to impose a definitive prescription of what constitutes correct and/or incorrect.

Consequently they are politically meaningless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,john f weldon
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:16 AM

Slightly irrelevant, but a few years ago, in France, I was hanging out with some French guys in a bar. Everyone was speaking English, on the assumption that I couldn't speak French. When the waiter arrived, I gave my order in French. Everyone's jaw dropped, and there was a stunned silence. Finally a French guy said, "It's as if a monkey suddenly spoke!"

I laughed along with the rest, which proves two things...

1) You can't insult a Canuck, our egos are far too secure.

2) It's hard to take insults from Frenchmen seriously, since they're so consistently rude it becomes meaningless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:29 AM

Some of us neanderthals have the balls to post under our real names.

It must be right convenient for critics to hide behind a nom de jeu.

Especially those who think they know better than I how to deal with grandsons buzzing with energy.

Uncle Dave has the rights of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:20 PM

"She referred to the activity as "climbing like monkeys" or something close to that. A great difference there. "

I think a lot of people would agree that there is very little difference. The comment makes an referral to a sterotype and there is no doubt about who the comment was directed to.

The tone and circumstances do play a great deal, and none of us really know what happened.

As Janice said, there does seem to be an attempt to marginalize issues like this. No wonder we have problems in the world.

How many times have we used the phrase "Dutch Treat" or "welsh on a bet"? It has become part of our language, and no one thinks that is is insulting to a nationality and a stereotype on their thriftyness. Yet, if someone used the term "Jew them down" when having a financial discussion, wouldn't we be right to be outraged? Who is the judge and jury to determine what sterotypes we are allowed to use and which ones are not appropriate?

Regardless of the circumstances, I think there is a legitimate reason to NOT use a term like "monkey" in such a situation. I believe it was said innocently and without malice, but an explanation and an apology would be appropriate. IF we continue to remain defiant and dig our heels in the sand to maintain a position, we never communicate and nothing gets resolved. It sounds, from the latest articles, that the neighbors did the right thing and solved an issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:28 PM

If the tree was small, it seems to me she wouldn't have said that the kids could have hurt themselves by climbing in it. This lady's story contradicts itself all over the place. My guess is that she is a busy body who needs to be in everyone else's business and her neighbors finally had enough of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:07 PM

A small Magnolia tree can still be a pretty big tree. The normal magnolia trees around hear are three or four times taller than the houses.

I don't think that we can know everything about the incident, but I gathered from the article that the police did not charge her for calling the kids monkeys. Her crime was disorderly conduct. She, by her own admission, went directly to the kids and ordered them to get out of the tree right in front of their parents. That is a pretty disrespectful thing to do even without the monkey comment which amounted to rubbing salt in the wound.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:17 PM

You guys just want to argue. If I say "yes" you'll automatically say "no."

Looks like things are back to usual at Mudcat with our dizzy duo.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:24 PM

SRS,

That is a personal attack, the second one. Have you appointed yourself to be the Mudcat mind reading argument police? If you have something constructive to say, on topic preferably, I'd like to read it. If you just have more attacks. I will be disappointed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:37 PM

Stilly River Sage, my experience with you here in the Mudcat has been, pretty consistantly, that you think you have a right to tell everyone else what to do. I've even had experiences of you posting as an anonymous guest in order to order me around (I know it was you because you admitted it later on). I can see why you would identify with the lady in that story. Nevertheless, you were not in any way in my thoughts when I posted what I did, nor did I say it just to argue. I said what I said because that's what I think, and I have as much right to post opinions here as you do. People who post opinions don't do it just to defy you. They do it because they have as much right to express their opinions as you do. You're not an authority figure here and nobody is obligated to treat you as one.

You're a very bossy person, and you seem to think you have a right to be. I would suggest that you make an effort get over yourself. One more piece of advice... don't take me on as a project. You will regret it if you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:38 PM

At least you did not call him a monkey


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:42 PM

I like being called a monkey. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:44 PM

Hey big monkey! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:51 PM

ahh.. you are branching out!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:58 PM

:-)

Out on a limb! and swinging from it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM

It took me some time to find out why a comparison to a monkey can be seen as a racial remark.

In German, we have lots of comparisons using the word monkey/ape (both "Affe". We say "with a monkey-like speed", "sitting like a monkey on a whetstone" (for someone sitting uneasily), use "monkey's swing" for a hairstyle and say "horny as a monkey" when something is truly awesome. We could say "This tune is horny as a monkey (affengeil)" and it would be a big praise.

If an African American with a basic understanding of German would come to Germany I wonder what would happen if I told him his children were "climbing on a tree with a monkey-like speed". He might not hear the big praise of his offspring motor skills that was meant.

I often long for that part of the past times captured in Ebbie's post.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:14 PM

Wolfgang - instead of wondering what would happen if you told an African-American that his children were climbing on a tree with monkey-like speed, perhaps you should wonder if you were an African Amiercan and someone from Germany told you that you were climbing on a tree like a monkey how you might feel?

Obviously there is no possible way you could answer that question, nor could any of us who are not African-American. The opposite is equally true. Analogies do not work in this case.   

It is not to say that you would be wrong for saying it, or that the woman in question was wrong either. That is far from the point. The issue comes down to communications - or the willingness to do so. In this case, it appears that all parties did the right thing and talked it out. THAT should be the lesson here, not knee jerk reactions to partial truths in a story that is more complicated than it appears.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: closet-folkie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:23 PM

"I believe it was said innocently and without malice, but an explanation and an apology would be appropriate."
An apology for saying something innocently and without malice? I don't even know how to process that. Sorry...


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:39 PM

I'm sorry too Closet! Keep trying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:14 PM

My dear man,

if only you'd engage your brain before you write.

1. you have no idea whether I am posting under my real name or not. Likewise, your name is of little or no significance to me.

2. I am a single parent with a 4 year old who is constantly buzzing with energy

3. Unlike you, I look after mine 24/7

4. You weren't criticized here for the way you handle your grandchildren, you were questioned on the way you react to another adult.

5. interesting how quickly you came out with the "don't tell me how to look after my kids" line, whether it was remotely relevant or not.

Thank you for illustrating my point so beautifully.

You clearly don't take criticism very well from anybody.

There there ... must be hard for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:38 PM

Out here, magnolia trees are very rare. We have maybe six in a valley of over 100,000 people. So, they are precious and fragile, even the big ones, which look stunted to me, after seeing such big ones in New England. A child would never be allowed to climb in one of them. There are plenty of cottonwoods, willows and other types for them to climb in. If I had a magnolia in my yard or knew of one in my neighbour's yard, I would definitely let kids know it was not a climbing tree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: sapper82
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:06 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:47 PM

A DC City assembly man was forced to resign when he used the word NIGGARDLY to describe a puny budget.

It was said by a black assmbly woman that while she did not know the exact meaning of the word, he should have known better.


Wrong Donuel, SHE ought to have known better. For someone to have to resign because of someone else's ignorance is wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:48 PM

enigma -

Latin aenigma, from Greek ainigma, from ainissesthai, ainig-, to speak in riddles, from ainos, fable.

denigrate -

Latin dnigrre, dnigrt-, to blacken, defame : d-, de- + niger, nigr-, black.

well one out of two origins 'Guest'!

back to the dictionary?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:52 PM

I think it was Ron Olesko who said:

I think a lot of people would agree that there is very little difference. The comment makes an referral to a sterotype [sic] and there is no doubt about who the comment was directed to.

Au contraire, mon frere! The comment makes no particular reference to the stereotype. Unless you refer to a stereotype that the arboreal primates man is related to like to climb and play in trees.

It only can be connected to a racial stereotype by the preconceptions in the minds of some hearers or readers. The woman's expression about "playing in the tree like monkeys" refers only to the idea referred to in the previous paragraph. It's the playing that is like monkeys.

Incidentally, I'll just mention:
monkeywrench
monkeybars
monkeying around
greasemonkey
monkey see, monkey do
and a number of other "monkey" expressions have nothing to do with a racial stereotype.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:36 PM

Any primate climbing a tree is going to do it in a monkey-like fashion.   We are built that way. Squirrels have their way of climbing trees, and so do cats, but apes (naked or otherwise) do it in a way that is similar to the way our cousins the monkeys do it.
............................

"Ooh, you cheeky monkey" said one the mother to her baby at the next table to mine in a caf today. I honestly don't think she was meaning to insult the baby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM

If you care to look into it, in the late 1800's and early 1900's the Irish immigrants to America were often depicted as monkeys. being approximately 50% Irish in my heritage I take no offense at any term using the word monkey as described in the first post. I probably wouldn't take too much offense at someone saying I looked like a monkey due to the fact that I find most of the monkey family to be handsome creatures.

Here's a story on political correctness - The U.S. military discarded and destroyed thousands of copies of a training manual for nurses because it used the pronouns she and her throughout the manual (even though field nurses (a.k.a. Corpsmen) were predominantly male throughout all wars) because male nurses might be offended. This cost the U.S. tax payer a few million to have the training manuals replaced.

It's been my experience that the term "political correctness" is used to describe a situation where something "might offend" somebody rather than in an instance where someone has actually been offended.

I think in the case of the training manual I'm more offended by the stupidity of the officials involved and the cost of the replacements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:23 PM

"If you care to look into it, in the late 1800's and early 1900's the Irish immigrants to America were often depicted as monkeys."

And if you care to look into it, in the early 2000s African-Americans are often referred to as monkeys, apes, etc., on various internet sites, on-line message boards, discussions, etc. Sorry, folks, this stuff is not ancient history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:33 PM

Didn't say it was.

But Meself, does that mean you think I shouldn't be offended because what happened to the Irish happened 100 years ago and not as recently? Why?

pResident Bush is also currently depicted as a chimpanzee all the time! Should all Republicans be offended? Should all Texans be offended? Should all white males be offended? Should all Americans be offended (when we're not laughing like hell at the depiction?)

If the point of this was that they were offended by their children acting in a manner that is typical of monkeys in trees I think the offended are showing a surprising lack of understanding of metaphor and euphemism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:55 PM

Sorry Dave, your explanation doesn't quite cut it. You can't play games like that. We all know why offense was taken,the inference to monkey was as evident as the nose on your face, mon frere!

We all know it was taken out of context, but you can't change the reason why people took offense - neither you or I can put ourselves in that position so it is no use to argue against it - it won't work!


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:23 PM

We don't in fact "know" why offence was taken in this case, because we don't know the full circumstances. We can guess, and we can pick through that press story and decide which version of the incident we believe and which we don't, and we might be right, and we might be wrong. But it makes more sense to pay attention to the issues stirred up rather than to the particular incident.

At one time it was the French who were liable to be referred to as monkeys in England, hence the unfortunate case of the Hartlepool Monkey, said to have been hanged after being accused of being a French spy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:08 PM

Coming in late on this thread, I noticed that in the first post "Cmdr. Michael Kilbourne said a ticket was issued because the ordinance bans conduct that disturbs or alarms people, and one of the boys told police he was scared by her comment.
st report."
Depending on the way the question is asked of a witness, an appropriate answer can be elicited to convict a defendant. Lawyers are adept at such questioning and this is now permeating to the police, certainly here in Britain.
As a witness to an incident of potential violence I was asked by a policeman if the words used by the arrested person causd me to be shocked, frightened, scared or what might have been my reaction. He was quite put out by my comment that I thought the words said were nothing more than the rantings of a drunk who would have been unlikely, the next day, to have been able to remember anything about the incident.
Due to my, I think reasoned, response I was considered to have been an unreliable witness. The policeman had in effect, been trying to put words into my mouth to enable him to obtain a conviction.
Colyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:56 PM

Jaysus, what a BIG storm in such an itsy-bitasy widdle teacup!! I swear I sometimes wonder where the grownups ran off to...



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:27 AM

I can, and do, accept criticism, but not from anonymous asources.

Lox - read the penultimate sentence in my original posting, and act on it.

Love and kisses, Bryn Neanderthal Pugh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:10 AM

Exactly as predicted.

I couldn't have asked for a better case study.

Cheeky monkey xx


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:11 AM

It happens often:
Neighbourhood children playing together get into a scuffle. Parents defending their own enter the fray. Next day the children are back playing together and all is forgotten. The parents, however, retain their anger for a lifetime.
In any case in the follow up news story the neighbours seem to have put it in the past. I think that many more people are quicker to take offense than in years past. I also don't think that rights of free speech have to be limited to appease sensitivities that are trivial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:12 AM

If you don't get off my case, Lox, I'll get my Dad to sort your Dad out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:09 AM

Chief Chaos wrote: It's been my experience that the term "political correctness" is used to describe a situation where something "might offend" somebody rather than in an instance where someone has actually been offended.

Oh, if that were only the case! My experience has been what I said before, which is that the terms "poltically correct" and "political correctness" have been used as code words to ridicule, marginalize, and dismiss both people and ideas. Those of us in the USA can hear the terms used this way in the daily talk radio diatribes of Messers. Limbaugh, Savage, and Hannity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: closet-folkie
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:20 AM

Sandy McLean said--"I think that many more people are quicker to take offense than in years past. I also don't think that rights of free speech have to be limited to appease sensitivities that are trivial."
That's about the size of it really, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:28 AM

The duty of courtesy towards others is generally more important than exercising our right of free speech in a way that offends against this duty.

I think that is the size of it.

And our duty of courtesy towards others includes not being quick to take offence where offence is not intended.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:28 AM

Janice in NJ, I recognise the use of the expression "politically correct" as code words to ridicule. Why, we see it often enough on Mudcat also. But while I don't condone the practice, I do wonder whether over-use of the term in the past is partially to blame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:00 AM

What McGrath said.

We can use colon, hyphen, bracket to denote a jokey remark - believe it or not, all my previous posts were tongue-in-cheek.

(Vide 'my Dad and your Dad', supra.)

Pity there ain't a "symbol" to alert the sensitive to tongue in cheek comments. More accurately, if there is I don't know of it, but if there is, I'll lay that a 'Catter knows of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:56 AM

As to a symbol to indicate jokiness, try :-), :->, :-;, and so forth.

I dislike them, along with the smiley-face icons, but that's an option.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:03 AM

Bryn Pugh...

;-P


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:11 AM

On the subject of political correctness... I live in a neighborhood that is almost all Black. I love my neighborhood and I care a lot about my neighbors. They are important to me. I could decide that I'm not going to care about "political correctness" and not be careful what I say because I believe in freedom of speech, and to hell with anyone's feelings. I choose to not do that because I am aware that using some terms, like monkey, for instance, when referring to any of my neighbors, even if I don't mean it in a racist way, may cause hurt for at least some of them. There really is a legitimate reason for this based on real experiences. I don't want to hurt them because I care about them. So I don't do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:19 AM

|Thank you, Uncle Dave and CarolC.

Uncle Dave, I don't like 'em any more than you do, but without face to face contact it's difficult to convey atmosphere and humour.

Either than or some 'Catters are extremely thin-skinned and, to use a good old UK expression, po-faced and prodnosed !

Kind regards to you both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:36 PM

Jack and Carol,

You two are really scary.

And this is a mild thread.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:47 PM

I find it interesting, and also quite revealing, Maggie, that of the dozens of people who have posted opinions on this thread that differ from yours, you have chosen to target me and JtS with your harassment. You're not the first person who has decided to target me in this way here in the Mudcat, and you probably won't be the last. But nobody who has done it in the past has been happy with the results in the long run. Consider yourself warned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:50 PM

Wow


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:08 PM

Gratuitous harassment is against Mudcat rules, Ebbie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM

>>
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:36 PM

Jack and Carol,

You two are really scary.

And this is a mild thread.

SRS<<

You think this is scary?!!

Imagine what we would do to you if we caught you climbing in our tree!!!

LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:43 PM

My post etherized. I had responded: You have a point but aren't threats also proscribed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:56 PM

Depends on the threat, Ebbie. One of the remedies for harassment is to alert the management to the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:00 PM

...which, by the way, the management has been doing a much better job of enforcing than they used to. There used to be a problem with a lack of consistent enforcement of the rules. This seems to no longer be the case. Or at least it hasn't been so much of a problem for me in the last few months.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:26 PM

I have to say that I would not complain to management over that level or type of attack. God knows we have all seen much worse. I think pointing it out is quite enough.

Is it just me or is SRS acting like the lady in the article. Instead of calling us monkeys, she is pretending that she is afraid of us as she metaphorically gets right up in our faces.

Carol is now warning her that if she keeps it up Joe might give her a "ticket" for "disorderly conduct" more likely he will just tell the lot of us to stop bothering him over trivia.

Folks its just the Internet. While I do have some heartfelt opinions. Mostly its just banter, nothing scary, nothing sinister. Just talking on the internet. Generally I try to echo the tone I perceive from the other person. I figure if they want to talk that way. That's the way they want to be talked to. It work quite well for most people. Its quite a bit of fun with a lot. Like Amos, Little Hawk, BillD, Mick and Gnu, to name a few. But some people, it just pisses them off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:32 PM

I disagree, Mr. Monkey.

I have had good results in the past, and I did not warn Maggie that I will alert management for the harassment so far. But I think it makes good sense to make sure Maggie knows that I will not tolerate a campaign of harassment from her. That will save us both a lot of time, trouble, and aggravation in the long run.

Maggie has been harassing me for years. I have ignored it so far, but now she seems to be intent upon escalating the harassment. It's time for me to say that it will no longer be tolerated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:35 PM

"Generally I try to echo the tone I perceive from the other person."

Another example of monkey see, monkey do????


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:40 PM

Which one is Maggie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:41 PM

Stilly River Sage


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:00 PM

>>From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:35 PM

"Generally I try to echo the tone I perceive from the other person."

Another example of monkey see, monkey do????<<

LOL!

Kinda sorta, there is an element of play.

It also appeals to my sense of fairness, and irony.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: kendall
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:46 PM

Definition of manners: Making other people feel at ease. Simple, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:22 PM

(Gol danged... Think I'll just meander outta here... Whew, Boberdz, these folks into some heavy duty food fightin'... You don't need to be here...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:45 PM

Snort! look who's talking! (Not you, Bobert, you're a real gent.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:55 PM

I've said what I have to say, Maggie. You now know where I stand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM

Idle thoughts at idle times.

In respect of my original post, it occurs to me that it is as well the grandson was climbing in the elm tree in my back garden, and not the monkey-puzzle (Araucaria araucana).

Current weather conditions here in Northamptonshire - 'monkey's wedding' (sunshine and showers).


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 06:39 AM

To lighten the tone a little...
I was just really interested in Bryn's descrition of the weather we're having in this part of the UK at the moment too as I'd never come across it before.

Monkeys Wedding

apologies for thread drift


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:38 AM

But if Bryn's grandson been foolish enough to try climbing a monkey puzzle tree, by definition he would have been acting in an un-monkey-like fashion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:26 PM

EVOLUTION MAMA

Old Lucian Burns had a gal,
Way down in Tennessee,
She told Lucian all about evolution,
She was sitting down on his knee.
Then one fine day, she got gay, [sic!]
And started stepping out,
But old Brother Lucian started a revolution,
The neighbors all could hear him shout.
What did he say?

He said...
Evolution Mama, Evolution Mama,
Don't you make a monkey out of me.
He said, Evolution Mama, don't you think you got me up a tree?
Now I remember the time I had you nice and tame,
You was eating right out of my hand,
Some fine day, I'm gonna take good aim,
And knock that peanut whistle off of your stand.

Now Evolution Mama, listen while I get you told,
I'm gonna tell you something's gonna make your blood run cold.
Now I ain't half man and I aint half beast,
But I can do you more good than this store bought piece
Evolution Mama, don't you make a monkey out of me.

Evolution Mama, sweet smelling Mama,
Don't you make a monkey out of me.
Now, Evolution Mama, don't you think you got me up a tree?
I remember the time you had me nice and tame,
I was eating right out of your hand.
Some fine day, I'm gonna take good aim,
And knock that peanut whistle off of your stand.

Now Evolution Mama, listen while I get you told,
I'm gonna tell you something's gonna make your blood run cold,
Gonna make you feel mighty old.
Well, I got myself a razor, and I got myself a gun,
Gonna carve on you if you stand still, gonna shoot you if you run,
Well, Evolution Mama, don't you make a monkey out of me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:55 AM

In the East wind that's blowing across the County today, it's cold enought to freeze the balls off a brass one.

And inclement enough to gelate the appendages off a non-ferrous anthropoid.

Is that politically correct enough ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:36 PM

Bloody liberals ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Thornton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 09:50 AM

Andrew Lloyd Webber has said today many of his famous musicals might not have been made today because of political correctness and for fear of offending minorities.

Two of Lord Lloyd Webber's biggest shows were inspired by accounts in the Bible - Jesus Christ Superstar and Joseph And The Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, both written with Tim Rice.


He said, so many people nowadays are obsessed with things offending people.They say you can't do this because it will offend that community, and then you can't say this because the Muslims will be offended by it and we'll end up being talked out of it. Talked out of ideas.He added, when he was 20 he didn't think about those things,you could just do it.

This on the day the government finally announced restrictions on the immigrant workforce. If they chased half of those on leeches on benefits back to back we wouldn't need them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM

Yet another inflammaTory post from a hatemongering guest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:18 AM

Andrew Lloyd-Webber on why political correctness must go

and from 'guest' Thornton...

'If they chased half of those on leeches on benefits back to back we wouldn't need them.'

an incredibly similar message (if you can get past the mangled English) like 'guests' Ledbury and Folkestone but yet another British placename -
this guy must be on his travels again :)

btw
'The Broadway debut of Jesus Christ Superstar in 1971 was condemned by religious groups but was followed by a West End production and a film.
Christian organisations called the show blasphemous and Jewish groups described it as anti-Semitic.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Mark Ross
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:36 AM

The town I live in(Eugene, Oregon)just won an award for political correctness. They made lactose intolerance a hate crime!

Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Social Worker
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM

Nice one Mark, we also have intolerance, giok normally sorts it though ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:34 AM

Political Correctness has reached absurdity...its the way the Fascist control your mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I'm going to close this thread since it's an April thread refreshed by a drive-by anonymous poster. If you're a registered member, you're welcome to start another thread on the subject.
    -Joe Offer-


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 24 May 6:57 PM EDT

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