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Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop

Art Thieme 01 Mar 08 - 12:48 PM
Art Thieme 01 Mar 08 - 01:30 PM
Charley Noble 01 Mar 08 - 01:54 PM
Murray MacLeod 01 Mar 08 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,Randy Fan 01 Mar 08 - 02:39 PM
Murray MacLeod 01 Mar 08 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,Randy Fan 01 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM
oldhippie 01 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM
john f weldon 01 Mar 08 - 03:00 PM
Murray MacLeod 01 Mar 08 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,Randy Fan 01 Mar 08 - 03:11 PM
BK Lick 01 Mar 08 - 03:26 PM
catspaw49 01 Mar 08 - 03:26 PM
Leadfingers 01 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM
Murray MacLeod 01 Mar 08 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Mar 08 - 03:47 PM
Charley Noble 01 Mar 08 - 03:53 PM
john f weldon 01 Mar 08 - 03:56 PM
meself 01 Mar 08 - 04:02 PM
bankley 01 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM
dick greenhaus 01 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM
Cool Beans 01 Mar 08 - 04:15 PM
Amos 01 Mar 08 - 04:15 PM
Rapparee 01 Mar 08 - 04:30 PM
Rapparee 01 Mar 08 - 04:40 PM
The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) 01 Mar 08 - 04:42 PM
meself 01 Mar 08 - 04:48 PM
Bill D 01 Mar 08 - 05:22 PM
Art Thieme 01 Mar 08 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 01 Mar 08 - 05:42 PM
SINSULL 01 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM
Stilly River Sage 01 Mar 08 - 05:59 PM
Cool Beans 01 Mar 08 - 06:25 PM
katlaughing 01 Mar 08 - 06:32 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Mar 08 - 06:38 PM
Fred Maslan 01 Mar 08 - 07:17 PM
john f weldon 01 Mar 08 - 07:39 PM
Rapparee 01 Mar 08 - 10:33 PM
Rapparee 01 Mar 08 - 10:35 PM
katlaughing 01 Mar 08 - 11:02 PM
Rapparee 01 Mar 08 - 11:06 PM
Art Thieme 01 Mar 08 - 11:19 PM
GUEST,Uncle Jaque 01 Mar 08 - 11:25 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 01 Mar 08 - 11:30 PM
Rapparee 01 Mar 08 - 11:35 PM
Charley Noble 02 Mar 08 - 12:07 AM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 02 Mar 08 - 12:24 AM
Stilly River Sage 02 Mar 08 - 12:38 AM
cetmst 02 Mar 08 - 07:08 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 02 Mar 08 - 07:41 AM
topical tom 02 Mar 08 - 10:17 AM
Stilly River Sage 02 Mar 08 - 11:18 AM
oldhippie 02 Mar 08 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Mar 08 - 11:46 AM
Waddon Pete 02 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM
Lonesome EJ 02 Mar 08 - 12:35 PM
Bill D 02 Mar 08 - 12:38 PM
Rapparee 02 Mar 08 - 12:45 PM
Geoff Wallis 02 Mar 08 - 12:49 PM
Bert 02 Mar 08 - 02:32 PM
oldhippie 02 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Mar 08 - 04:30 PM
Mo the caller 02 Mar 08 - 04:38 PM
kendall 02 Mar 08 - 08:47 PM
Joe_F 02 Mar 08 - 08:50 PM
Rapparee 02 Mar 08 - 08:54 PM
meself 02 Mar 08 - 09:29 PM
dick greenhaus 02 Mar 08 - 09:29 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Mar 08 - 12:54 AM
Lonesome EJ 03 Mar 08 - 01:11 AM
Waddon Pete 03 Mar 08 - 04:33 AM
pavane 03 Mar 08 - 05:11 AM
GUEST,Suffolk Miracle 03 Mar 08 - 08:31 AM
Rapparee 03 Mar 08 - 09:09 AM
meself 03 Mar 08 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,JohnB 03 Mar 08 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 03 Mar 08 - 11:22 AM
Mark Ross 03 Mar 08 - 11:58 AM
goatfell 03 Mar 08 - 12:02 PM
frogprince 03 Mar 08 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 03 Mar 08 - 02:14 PM
Cool Beans 03 Mar 08 - 03:10 PM
Jane of 'ull 03 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM
Charley Noble 03 Mar 08 - 04:47 PM
Rog Peek 03 Mar 08 - 05:14 PM
Lonesome EJ 03 Mar 08 - 05:24 PM
van lingle 03 Mar 08 - 05:39 PM
Rapparee 03 Mar 08 - 05:55 PM
Lonesome EJ 03 Mar 08 - 06:25 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Mar 08 - 07:18 PM
Cool Beans 03 Mar 08 - 07:43 PM
van lingle 03 Mar 08 - 07:51 PM
pavane 04 Mar 08 - 09:51 AM
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: If I Were Free To Speak My Mind
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 12:48 PM

I'm gonna start a new thread I think. Once, I was asked by a folk festival to put together a 1-man workshop called "POLITICALLY INCORRECT SONGS. "There were MANY songs I had in my repertory that had become, for various reasons, over the years, politically incorrect and difficult, in many settings, to pull out and sing.   I thought they were all quite good or at least interesting songs historically, sociologically, etc.

Changing attitudes, the mere passing of time, personal enlightenment over some years...

Maybe, now, I ought to add "Kum Ba Ya" to that list !!!!!! ;-)

But done in a retrospective, as history, possibly with a relevant story/joke, tossed in --- to prove a connection to modern people, times and events --- the chorus to this song served as a perfect way to tie the tales within the various songs together.

It is pleasant to recall that old workshop. We MUST learn to learn from history! Until we evolve to the place where we can truly empathize with other people and/or species, I doubt our civilization has much of a chance to make it a part of our sensory input.

Art Thieme
Transferred in per request. JC


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Subject: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 01:30 PM

Ballad Of Sherman Wu (ethnically insensitive-but funny)
Blow Boys Blow (a whaling song)
Greenland Whalers-- as above
The Diamond -- as above
The Cock fight
Buffalo Skinners
Union Maid
East Of West Berlin
East Texas Red (gun-play to right a wrong)
Blackjack County Chain (murder for a good reason?)
Dobie Bill (gun-play to make things right)
Louis Collins -- gun-play-murder
Electric Chair Blues
The Wind And Rain (killing and making a fiddle from the bones)
The South Coast (mail order bride)
The Ladies Auxiliary (how women can help the union man)
Old Lady Who Swallowed A Fly (how can I count the ways?)
Cherry Tree Carol -- blasphemy
Bitter Withy (apocryphal blasphemy)
Billy Vanero (gun-play to set stuff right)
Zack The Mormon Engineer (anti Mormon/polygamy)
Pie In The Sky (blasphemy)
Sioux Indians (ethnic cleansing)
We've Got F.D.R. Back Again (anti Bush politics!?)
Aunt Martha (the dangers of gambling)
God Don't Like Ugly Baby Your Home Is In Hell
Night They Drove O' Dickey Down (Nixon)
Lord Thomas-beheading bride and kicking it against wall)
-------------------------------------------

These are just the few songs I can recall from my own repertory that were in the workshop called Politically Incorrect Songs. I did it at the University Of Chicago Folk Festival about 1988.

We do tend to toss the baby with the wash-water, do we not?


If Joe, or some kind clone, can pull my last post to the thread about the song "If I Were Free To Speak My Mind" and put it into this thread,it would be seriously appreciated!

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 01:54 PM

Art-

Practically any song Tom Lehrer composed was politically incorrect. Such was their charm.

"The Lavender Cowboy" (but only three hairs on his chest) is another classic which made the pop charts.

"My Last Cigar" was a lament of a young officer who had run out of stogies and was far out to sea. I always wanted to add the Kipling lines "A woman is only a woman but a good cigar is a smoke."

"The Anarchist Song" with its advocacy of trying to blow people up with the bomb, bomb, bomb. We used to think this was very amusing.

"The Tenure Tango" which is only politically incorrect from the prospective of university administrators.

"Dead Dog Scrumpy (Cider)" which might ferment further canine abuse.

"The Body in the Bag" which might encourage the same to felines.

Cheerily,
Charley Ignoble


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:32 PM

Randy Newman's "Short People" has to be included in any list of non-PC songs.


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: GUEST,Randy Fan
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:39 PM

I believe that the number of people whove misunderstood the words to Short People now runs into the millions. Murray just adds to their number.


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:48 PM

I don't think I misunderstand the words, I enjoy the song, and I realise it is tongue-in -cheek, so I don't take offence.

But then again, I am over six feet tall ...


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: GUEST,Randy Fan
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM

Murray the song has nothing to do with physical height!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: oldhippie
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM

"Send Me To Glory In A Glad Bag" - John Biggs comes to mind.


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:00 PM

From an early Pete Seeger record:

I had a wife and got no good of her
Here is how i easy got rid of her
Took her out and chopped the head off her
Early in the morning (etc....)

"It's a shame to Whip your Wife, on a Sunday" (fiddlin John Carson)

Best of all, the earliest versions of Old Man River.
Paul Robeson actually used the dreaded N-word in early versions, and I have an Al Jolson version that does also. It is far more poignant than later revisions.

Ethnic sensitivity (although sometimes a good thing) is often the enemy of poetry.


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:04 PM

maybe you are the one who is misunderstanding the lyrics of "Short People", Randyfan ?


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: GUEST,Randy Fan
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:11 PM

Oh well just another from the US who doesnt understand irony!


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: BK Lick
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:26 PM

From Wikipedia:
Newman often pokes fun at the misinterpretation of his song during concerts.


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:26 PM

Hey Randy Fan.......I'm a fan too and the point/subject of this thread is politically incorrect which as often means words as well as ideas. Many Randy Newman songs are non-PC because of the words and not for their intent as used in the song.

We're rednecks, rednecks....Don't know our ass from a hole in the ground
We're rednecks, rednecks....Just keepin' the niggers down"


That's not PC no matter the real point of the song. One of the great charms of RN is just that........the language is true.

Great thread here Art!   I'm so damn glad you got that new computer!

And..........Ya' know, it sort of depends on what you're teaching just whether "East Texas Red" is politically incorrect or not. Outside of the gunplay there are a couple of solid moral/ethical ideas in there........Besides, I love the damn song (;<))

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM

Tucker Zimmerman ' s song " Handfull of Rain" has the line :-

'One mans's woman is another man's pain in the arse , but that's allright by me'


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:46 PM

Spaw has jolted my memory into recollecting Jerry Jeff Walker's "Up Against the Wall, Redneck Mothers", which could be considered non-PC.

Merle Haggard's "Okie from Muskogee" is either PC or non-PC depending on whether you believe his tongue was in his cheek when he wrote it.


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Subject: RE: Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:47 PM

Black Betty.
God Save the King.

There is an old Russian song called the Liveried Nigger, but it's from 1911 and he hardly puts in an appearance, only to hand the singer's old flame her coat.
Gop so smykom is an old Russian criminal song, about a criminal who boasts that he'll burglar God's office and steal Judas' silver.

Charley Noble, you left out Lehrer's National Brotherhood Week!


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:53 PM

Volgadon-

Yes, indeed. I think it's only fair to include ALL of the Lehrer songs. To exclude some would imply discrimination, which I personally cannot abide.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 03:56 PM

Back in my younger hippie days, we used to frequent a local C&W bar; the band was great, even tho some of the other patrons were kinda scary. When the band asked for requests we yelled "Okie From Muskogee." The MC commented: "Geez, every time there's hippies in here, they ask for that song." They were frustrated that we DIDN'T take offense, and laughed along with them laughing at us.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: meself
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:02 PM

"Oh well just another from the US who doesnt understand irony!"

Now would that be ironic, politically incorrect, or just plain ill-mannered?


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: bankley
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

"I'm an Asshole"...Dennis Leary

a lot of Stephen Foster's songs have 'niggas' but that was then

David Allen Coe, and Loudain Wainright 3rd... have produced songs that could offend many...

thanks Art...


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM

There were some fine Civil War examples. "Year of the Jubilo" comes to mind, as does "Sambo's Right to be Kilt". There's "Twelve Hundred More" (a bit later), "Damn, Damn, Damn the Filipinos" and "When a Lady's Wearing Pantaloons" from the Phillipine insurrection. (all in DigiTrad)


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Cool Beans
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:15 PM

"Bill Johnson, The Monkey and the Dago." My late friend Downeast Bob used to sing it with gusto.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:15 PM

"Why Do They Call Me Snowball"
"Way Down Yonder in the Cornfield"
"DIvil and the Farmer's Wife"

are a few that come to mind which parlayed biases about gender or color.

A


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:30 PM

The Old Woman From Wexford (where to start?)
The Pill Song (contraception, religious belief)
Vietnam Jingle Bells
Blue-tail Fly
Jump Jim Crow
Yes, We Have No Bananas
Starving To Death On A Government Claim
Buddy, Can You Spare A Dime?
Lyndon Johnson Told The Nation
Dixie
Old Folks At Home
Carry Me Back To Old Virginny
Old Black Joe
Come Out, Ye Black And Tans
The Bold Raparree
Yankee Doodle
Tell Laura I Love Her
Lucy In The Sky
Whup Jamboree
Barbara Allen
Lord Randall

...hell, Art, 'most every song's got something in it to offend someone.


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Subject: Lyr Add: WHATEVER YOU SAY, SAY NOTHING
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:40 PM

Chorus:
Whatever you say, say nothing
When you talk about you know what
For if you know who could hear you
You know what you'd get
For they'd take you off to you know where
For you wouldn't know how long
So for you know who's sake
Don't let anyone hear you singing this song


And you all know what I'm speaking of
When I mention you know what
And I think it's very dangerous to even mention that
For the other ones are always near
Although you may not see
And if anyone asks who told you that
Please don't mention me

And you all know who I'm speaking of
When I mention you know who
And if you know who could hear me
You know what he'd do
So if you don't see me around
You'll know why I'm away
And if anyone asks you where I've gone
Here's what you must say

Well that's enough about so and so
Not to mention such and such
I think I'll end my song now
Sure I've already said too much
For the less you say, the less you hear
And the less you'll go astray
And the less you think, the less you do
And the more you'll hear them say


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:42 PM

"the number of people whove misunderstood the words to Short People now runs into the millions."

the number of Randy Newman fans who've said this now runs in the millions*LOL*

Charlotte (who is 4 feet 11 inches tall)


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: meself
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:48 PM

(Good one!)


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:22 PM

I was once upbraided for singing "Poor Lil"

(Lil, she was a famous beauty.
She lived in a house of ill reputy.)


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:34 PM

Some fascinating responses. I even recorded some of those songs I listed. "The ballad Of Sherman Wu" was recorded by Pete Seeger on a Folkways LP.   It was about a student at Northwestern University in the 1950s who was kept out of Psi Upsilon frat because he was Chinese. It might've been the first BROADSIDE album on that label. It was meant to point out he wrongheadedness of what was going down. Some humorous lines fed on the stereotypes and many laughed in spite of the good intentions. It was a hard song to take seriously.

Maybe we need a thread on "Songs that are funny in spite of original serious intent!" --- How about "LIZZY LINDSAY" with ol' Ronald MacDonald showing up to woo Lizzy.

Ah, what ravages of fate the mere passing of time does to discredit an earlier generations sacred cows! It's like Al Grierson's great song about "Old Coyote"---the cosmic ultimate trickster had all four of his paws in these doings.------ Personally, I love those quirks of fate.
A hell hole of a place, a housing project in Chicago, CABRINI GREEN, was named for a nun----but it's hard to hear the name of that decent woman without thinking of the horrors endured by those unlucky enough to have lived in those buildings.

But I digress I guess. Sorry for creeping my own thread...

Art ;-)


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:42 PM

well over half the Trad. Arr music is politically and sexually incorrect...I'm not going to stop singing and playing..

Here's One Now....

The Bird In The Bush

Charlotte (the erotic view from Ma and Pa's piano stool


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM

Coon Songs invariably make someone cringe. In another thread "Kentucky Babe" and "Mammie's Little Coal Black Rose" come up.

Recently, there was some real harm done with a song from the 20s mildly ridiculing Japanese but mentioning Nagasaki and using an English word which translates to an insult in Japanese. Be sure of your audience and think before you sing.


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Subject: Lyr Add: SHORT PEOPLE (Randy Newman)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:59 PM

Art,

Great beginning for a what will no doubt be a long running discussion. Simply understanding why people feel songs are not "politically correct" (an objectionable term in many situations) is interesting. So many so quick to criticise, to not take the long view, to apply critical thinking, to draw on the sense of irony.

And BTW, here, from the Randy Newman site, are the words to Short People. Might as well finish up that squabble with a look at the words:

Short People

Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
To live

They got little hands
Little eyes
They walk around
Tellin' great big lies
They got little noses
And tiny little teeth
They wear platform shoes
On their nasty little feet

Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
`Round here

Short People are just the same
As you and I
(A Fool Such As I)
All men are brothers
Until the day they die
(It's A Wonderful World)

Short People got nobody
Short People got nobody
Short People got nobody
To love

They got little baby legs
That stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say hello
They got little cars
That go beep, beep, beep
They got little voices
Goin' peep, peep, peep
They got grubby little fingers
And dirty little minds
They're gonna get you every time
Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
'Round here
___


My Dad had a lot of songs that could offend someone, and I think we learned a lot about the world and thinking when he explained to us what they meant. Talk about a liberal education!

SRS


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Cool Beans
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 06:25 PM

I don't understand what's politically incorrect about "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime." Could someone enlighten me.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 06:32 PM

Murray, we used to LOVE singing UP Against the Wall, You Redneck Mothers! Esp. when JJWalker was there to sing it with!

I was upbraided one time in WY for singing She'll Be Coming Round the Mountain. The upbraider indicated that it was racist. I do not understand. Someone enlighten me, please?


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 06:38 PM

Yes, there are some above that puzzle me as to why they are politically incorrect. Perhaps we should give reasons.

Abdul the Bulbul Amir (racist)
The Sheikh of Araby (ditto)
Hog's Eye man (includes line, in some versions "Big buck nigger with his sea boots on)
Champion he was a Dandy (dog fighting)
The Old Alarum Clock (glorifies terrorism)


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Fred Maslan
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 07:17 PM

Recently came upon the lyrics for "Squaws upon the Yukon". Which actually was heard on the radio in the 1960's as I recall. And thought for about 2 seconds of singing it at song circle. but then reality hit.
Nope!


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 07:39 PM

Coon from Tennessee
-on a Red Clay Ramblers vinyl circa mid seventies


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 10:33 PM

"Buddy Can You Spare A Dime" -- I've sung it and been told that it made fun of the poor! Of course, the guy who criticized me wasn't hurting for a meal or decent clothing....


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 10:35 PM

And while we're at it, let's not forget the songs that glorify alcoholism, like:

Jug of Punch
Whiskey You're The Devil
Copper Kettle

...and about twenty thousand more.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:02 PM

Or, for that matter, dare I say it? What should we do with a drunken sailor!


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:06 PM

Or "Sloop John B." for that matter.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:19 PM

I suspect I'm saying that there might not be any politically correct or incorrect songs at all really. It could be that there are songs that push individuals' personal buttons at some given moment, just as there are cartoons depicting deities that set off the humongous ultimate Rube Goldberg Machine that, in the end, ignites the whole world and ends everything. And there probably might be just that wrong moment to sing a given song---or to write certain words. -- Just ask Salman Rushdie about that dynamic.

I've always felt those Rube Goldberg cause-and-effect mechanical machines were pretty funny, and also proof of some sort of "intelligent design."

That might be a fault of mine though, I guess. I see the humor in almost all of it. My list of songs were simply to show how timing and context is everything! I always figured that if anybody in my audience "takes offense," they ought to try to put it back quickly before all the cows get out! (pun intended--scroll down ;-)









(takes a fence!)
Just a little joke, but I didn't think it'd be THAT little!

It can sometimes get so quiet around Mudcat that you can hear a pun drop! ;-)

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs
From: GUEST,Uncle Jaque
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:25 PM

When we're doing Civil War reenactment, we have to be pretty careful of what we perform to who, and there are a lot of historical songs - particularly some of Steven Foster's - that we only play - at least in their entirety - to VERY select audiences!
At some of the major reenactments - like the one coming up this July in Gettysburg - some festive bunch will probably be gathered around a campfire in blackface doing an authentic period Minstrel show...
AFTER the public has all gone home! I'm here to tell ya; they are a hoot!

"Old Zip Coon", for example, is a catchy little minstrel tune and a natural for the banjo - but songs like that demand extreme social discretion!
One of the things that the Minstrels did was to caricature the ethnically distinctive dialect of the slave culture, which white people of the time found to be utterly and hysterically amusing.

Some folks just don't get it that we're trying to present "Living History" the way it WAS, not how the modern "enlightened" elite think that it ought to have been. Some of the "revisionist history" going on in public schools these days does, I opine, tremendous disservice to generations who have gone before us and have made America, for better or for worse, what we are today.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:30 PM

I still sometimes sing "Bright Silvery Light Of The Moon" in public but I choose carefully the venue, state beforehand that it isn't very PC and that I didn't "WRITE" it. So far I've gotten a lot of laughs and no negative feedback but no doubt someday somebody will take offense. Sometimes I think that the PC pendulum has swung too far and is limiting free speech, but I am also a strong believer in equality. However humour wins over bombast so at times I may push the limits a bit. Racism I will fight against and real gender issues as well. Religious dogma will find less sympathy in my heart.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:35 PM

My father acted in minstrel (as well as in other types of theater). And I agree about revisionist history: there was good and bad and you have to take one with the other. Harriet Tubman was more than balanced by the slave catchers, Frederick Douglass with those who forbade slaves to learn anything.

To make historical re-enactment a true re-enactment a lot of politically improper -- not to say repugnant -- things would have to be done. My brother and I thought once of getting a cart, a couple of barrels, and a couple of long handled shovels and becoming nightsoil removal specialists in a reproduced village of great historical importance (things changed and we didn't need to do that particular protest).

When Colonial Williamsburg re-enacted a slave auction some years ago the local NAACP objected. I abhor slavery, but I disagreed with the NAACP on that one. SHOW people the bad, show them the politically incorrect.

How otherwise will they know??


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 12:07 AM

Kat-

There are certainly mildly bawdy verses to "She'll Be Coming Round the Mountain" but I've never run across a racist verse. "She'll be wearing pink pajamas when she comes" just doesn't rise to "politically incorrect" in my book.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 12:24 AM

Initially, I was just going to say that the initial definition of non-PC material was way broader than mine. All the outlaw ballads, for example, don't ring "non-PC" bells in my head. Maybe they are ethically challenged, yes, but that depends on (1)the circumstances and (2) the ending. From what I know of John Wesley Hardin, for example, he was pretty much an open-and-shut psychopathic SOB whom I would not invite home for dinner, and the Dylan song to me is a laugh, content wise, though I love it musically. On the other hand, if "Cole Younger" ends with

The robbing of the Northfield Bank
Is a deed I'll never deny,
But which I will be sorry of
Until the day I die,

then I've got to say that that is a "moral tale."

What I really want to say now, though, cues off Rapaire's last post.

I once did a couple rather formal debates on Civil War issues--Did the South have a right to secede? Was slavery the cause of the war? Stuff like that. I was a Union dude, and was opposed by two very well informed "Confederates," who were very articulate gents. After one debate, I heard an African-American woman in the audience say that she never understood the whole slavery thing completely until she heard my debate partner give the Southern viewpoint.

Unfortunately--and if I'm reading between the lines correctly, Rapaire is saying this too--it's difficult to find people willing and able to present the nitty-gritty of some of our past history. (I had another Civil War show cancelled because the local Moms Against Guns didn't want to see soldier re-enactors with weapons.) But to return to the main point, SOME (tho' not all) "politically incorrect" stuff can be made into a great teaching vehicle.

Chicken Charlie


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 12:38 AM

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't, when considering the raw material--perform a song as originally sung and risk offending those who are the butt of the joke and those who recognize the nature of the song and wish it to vanish; perform a revisionist version and risk offending those who despise the bowdlerization of the work and who know that to not tell history the way it happened is to risk repeating the mistake in some new way in the future.

There will be no one or two or even a few answers to this. Someone will always be offended. The best you can do is offer warnings to those with delicate sensibilities and not overplay your hand when approaching material that is no longer sanctioned by the dominant culture. There are scholars and performers who can bridge those gaps. I'm thinking of a performance I heard last year when the BBC's Lucie Skeaping visited Texas for a brief lecture on broadside ballads. The nature of that lecture and performance didn't get into the kind of material we are discussing here (except for some bawdy stuff, and there are always some who will be offended by that). But her scholarship and demeanor, of understanding good humor, I think can serve as an example. And this is said in the context of the discussion started by Art, who like Skeaping, has the background to cover it.

That said, I suspect there are some performers who, if they aren't confident enough to approach it in a large way, might consider not moving into that territory. Doing it in a nervous way will only chum the water for critics.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: cetmst
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:08 AM

Then there are songs that start out with good intentions and come up with some questionable lines. I've been bothered by singing "There'll Be No Distinction There" and coming to the line "and we'll all be white in that heavenly light." I'm sure there are other examples.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:41 AM

Newman is the unparalleled master of double-layered meaning. But God's Song is bleak no matter how you interpret it, and is bound to upset a lot of religious folk, though at least it's non-denominational. (Worth the price of a ticket to hell just to hear Etta James sing it.) And Sail Away (ditto). Spaw, don't forget the smart-assed New York Jew. We wouldn't want him to feel left out.   

Historically speaking, Mister Banjo is now pretty taboo. Shame, because I always liked the rhythm in it when I was a kid and we sang it in school with nary a thought.

I have a book of Handel arias published in 1910 by a prestigious London classical-music firm which is still in business, and the back outside cover (where they always used to advertise their other wares) is proudly emblazoned with - I don't even feel comfortable typing this but here's what it says - "Ten More Nigger Tunes". We have at least made some progress as a society in the intervening century.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: topical tom
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 10:17 AM

A very old song "If The Man in the Moon Were a Coon, Coon, Coon..."

   Decidedly racist.The only part I recall is the chorus:

          If the man in the moon were a coon,coon, coon
          What would you do?
          No strolling around the park at night,
          No courting in the bright moonlight,
          If the man in the moon were a coon, coon, coon.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 11:18 AM

There will be equally suggestive or expicit songs aimed at slave-owners, various overlords, bosses, mill owners, etc., and some probably contain coded language to conceal the fact. Signifying Monkey by Henry Louis Gates is one source. Others would be more openly contemptuous. What do we know about those? If most of the contributors on this thread are white, what have we done to look beyond the center in which we reside?

SRS


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: oldhippie
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 11:41 AM

The best thing about "Okie From Muskogee" was it got rewritten as "Hippies From Olema".


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 11:46 AM

Charley, you are right. Did you know that there are some people that do not love their fellow man? I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM

I was once told that I couldn't sing "Five Little Speckled Frogs" because they were male frogs.....a good friend from the Caribbean was also told she couldn't sing "Baa Baa Black Sheep". Her response was, "Well, if I can't sing it....who can?"

Best wishes,

Peter


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 12:35 PM

Oh the sun shines bright on my old Kentucky Home
In summer the darkies are gay

I remember singing this at a Derby Party only to be reminded later by my date that there were several black people in the group. Hell, I never even thought about that line until that moment. Talk about racism through osmosis.

How about Kinky Friedman's Get your Biscuits in the Oven and your Buns in the Bed?


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 12:38 PM

kat...as to "She'll Be Coming Round the Mountain" ..why, it's obvious why it is racist...she was only driving 6 white horses! .


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 12:45 PM

CChucky, did you know that for a long time -- and possibly even now, I don't know -- the National Park Service would not permit re-enactments at Yorktown and Gettysburg because they did not want guns on the battlefields??

Now, if they could only apply that as a current policy to a number of places I could name....


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 12:49 PM

Just wondering how some of Kinky Friedman's songs are regarded bearing in mind his continuing campaign for the governorship of Texas?

'Asshole from El Paso' ('I'm just an asshole from El Paso, a place where sweet young virgins are deflowered') and 'They Ain't Making Jews Like Jesus' spring to mind.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Bert
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 02:32 PM

There's...

Little Yellow Coon
Glad we had a nice quiet day

and all the stuff on the 'Exit Visa' such as

I'm proud to be a Saudi from the Wadi
Ahmed meets Abdulla in the Market place (Oobaldi)
and thwelve days of Ramadan.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: oldhippie
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM

I still break up at Kinky's "Waitret, Please Waitret".


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 04:30 PM

Venus in Furs!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Mo the caller
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 04:38 PM

Who says the frogs were male? Nothing in my version says it.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: kendall
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 08:47 PM

The house next door to mine's been sold to niggers, is, on the surface, very racist, yet if you examine the lyrics, you see that the song contains many of the stereotypes about blacks, that are just not true. So, what it actually shows is the ignorance of the singer.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Joe_F
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 08:50 PM

Kipling, passim, but especially "The Betrothed", "Mandalay", "The Female of the Species", "The White Man's Burden", "Gunga Din", "The Ladies", "Pharaoh and the Sergeant".


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 08:54 PM

"Gunga Din"? Really? I always understood that to be a comment upon the humanity of the water carrier in the face of the racism and imperialism of the British.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: meself
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 09:29 PM

Ah yes, the faithful brown man who takes any amount of abuse from his white master and keeps smiling .... Just like good ol' Uncle Tom - nobody ever objected to him, did they?


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 09:29 PM

Rapaire-
Sure it does. But it has all those PI words. Like Year of the Jubilo, a staunchly abolitionist song.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 12:54 AM

I wonder if we've overshot where Art was going with this thread?


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:11 AM

Gunga Din


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:33 AM

Hello Mo,

"Who says the frogs were male? Nothing in my version says it."

Exactly.....it was a life style hang-up of the person who said it!

Best wishes,

Peter


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: pavane
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 05:11 AM

Hey, that's the first time I ever saw a reference to 'Ahmed and Abdullah'. I do have a copy on cassette tape somewhere - TOTALLY BANNED in Saudi, where I got it. I can understand why, too.

I understand the kids here were told to sing Baa Baa GREEN sheep, which makes total nonsense of the whole song. There are plenty of black sheep to be seen here in the Welsh hills, but never a green one.
I can't see anything derogatory in the song, either, whether about sheep or people.

And I did see a story recently about one poor unfortunate who was fired for using the word 'Niggardly'.

Quote from World Wide Words:

Despite the similarity in spelling, this word has no connection with nigger, the one word which these days it is almost impossible for white Americans to say or write publicly.

At the beginning of 1999, David Howard (the head of the Office of Public Advocate in Washington, DC) used it during a discussion with a black colleague in describing a budget allocation which he considered to be inadequate. He was reported as saying: "I will have to be niggardly with this fund because it's not going to be a lot of money". In large part the uproar came about because the word is not especially common: even Mr Howard said that he had learned it while studying, rather than by hearing it used. Misunderstandings and misapprehensions are much more likely under such circumstances.

The adverb form niggardly, miserly or stingily, was formed in the sixteenth century from niggard, a miser or stingy person. In the Wycliffe Bible of 1384 it was spelled nygard; earlier still it can be found as nigon, and another form nig also existed. We are pretty sure this was borrowed from a Scandinavian source, because there are related words in several Germanic languages, for example, the Old Norse hnøgger, meaning "stingy". So it has nothing to do with nigger, which comes via French nègre from Spanish negro, ultimately from Latin niger, meaning "black".
(end of quote)


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 08:31 AM

Ewan McColl wrote a song beginning:
Hitler's a non-smoker and Churchill smokes cigars
They're both as keen as mustard on imperialistic wars
But Uncle Joe's a worker and a very decent chap
He even smokes a pipe and wears a taxi-driver's cap.

Don't know in today's climate whether he would be more abused for praising Stalin or pipe-smoking.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 09:09 AM

Ah, meself -- did you ever read Stowe's book?

..."I understand," said the young man, "that you bought, in New Orleans, a boy, named Tom. He used to be on my father's place and I came to see if I couldn't buy him back."

Legree's brow grew dark, and he broke out passionately: "Yes, I did by such a fellow, -- and a h--l of a bargain I had of of it, too! Set up my niggers to run away, got off two gals, worth eight hundred or a thousand dollars apiece. He owned to that, and when I bid him tell me where they was, he up and said he knew, but he wouldn't tell, and stood to it, though I gave him the cussedest flogging I ever gave nigger yet. I b'lieve he's trying to die; but I don't know as he'll make it out."


                            -- Harriet Beecher Stowe, Uncle Tom's
                               Cabin
(New York: Grosset & Dunlap,
                               s.d), p. 410.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: meself
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 09:52 AM

Umm - I read the Classics Illustrated comic - and I remember the version in 'The King & I' - do those count?


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 10:34 AM

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned "Hunting" Songs, other than Whale.
Dido Dendigo
Innocent Hare
The Keeper (Yes I do know about the sexual side of it)
Greenmore Hare
Horn of the Hunter
John Peel
etc
JohnB


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:22 AM

"Drop-kick Me, Jesus, Through the Goalposts of Life" (can't recall the 'country' composer.

"Get Your Biscuits in the Oven and Your Buns in the Bed" by Kinky Friedman and his Texas Jewboys (supposedly dedicated to Gloria Steinhem)

"Why Don't We Get Drunk and Screw?" by Jimmy Buffett

"The Yellow Rose of Texas," in the sense that most Texans who sang it lustily for years didn't recognize the implications.

"When Our Hearts Were Young and Gay" - if you're hetero

"Take the Job and Shove It!" by Johnny Paycheck

Any number of songs by the late Country Dick Montana and The Beat Farmers


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Mark Ross
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:58 AM

THE HAND OF GOD(aka GOD WILL FUCK YOU UP)by John R. Butler gets my vote.


Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 12:02 PM

I like non PC songs because they are more truthful than PC songs


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:07 PM

My wife sings in a large choral group with an evangelical bent. They were rehearsing a medley of the U.S. armed forces songs, and were to sing just the chorus of "Anchors Aweigh". Someone objected to the words "on our last night ashore, drink to the foam"; so they sang "on our last night ashore, hail to the foam". I consider that a total travesty, and completely inappropriate in the context of their intention to honor servicemen.

On an entirely different level, my seminary roommate strolled into the apartment one day and belted out:
    "Jesus loves the little children,
    All the little children of the world;
    Niggers, kikes, and spics, and wops,
    Jesus thinks they all are tops;
    Jesus loves the little children of the world".
I'm really torn between cracking up at that and considering it to be
one of the most genuinely offensive things I've ever heard.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:14 PM

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I recently saw a "definition" of political correctness that came pretty close to the mark:

PC:
"Advancing the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

I would also propose that veritas is not served, in the main, by such filtration of thought and speech. It is not unlike the making of wine. Too much fining and filtering removes the heart and soul of the finished product. The result, in the words of the late Ernest Gallo (of Gallo Wines), is a product whose main distinction is that it is "designed to offend as few as possible."


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Cool Beans
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 03:10 PM

"I'm really torn between cracking up at that and considering it to be
one of the most genuinely offensive things I've ever heard."
Frogprince, I don't believe those concepts are mutually exclusive!


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Jane of 'ull
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

I remember a local blues band who used to do a number that I can only recall a few lines from, he was singing to a woman and it went 'you won't cook, you won't sew, you won't even scrub that floor, babe I love ya but you gotta go'. anyone know the title of this song? Jane


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:47 PM

Pavane-

When we drove through the hills of Wales last year we only counted 17 Black sheep, and 38,657 White sheep. But maybe we missed a few sheep and a few hills.

With regard to "niggardly" not being offensive to Black people, do people from Wales consider "welching" on a bet offensive?

I don't think I'd use either term.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rog Peek
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 05:14 PM

Nice Legs Shame About the Face - The Monks

Rog


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 05:24 PM

Welching, indian giving, dutch courage, are all terms based or derived from racial/national stereotypes. Niggardly is not. Honking your horn is not a disparagement of Hungarians, nor is Doo Wop music an attack on Italians, nor is yanking a chain an insult of Americans. Now, that doesn't mean someone won't take offense at those expressions. It just means they are getting pissed for a stupid reason. In other words, their problem not mine.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: van lingle
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 05:39 PM

Interesting thread, Art.

Country blues is full of Non PC lyrics. Sugarbabe It's All Over Now by Mance Lipscomb ("Going dowtown gonna get me a rope, Whup that woman 'til she buzzard lope" and Bo Carter's Soo Cow (Soo Cow better come home quick, I'll break your leg with a stick.") come to mind and the one by Blind Boy Fuller where he brags about shooting his woman which he actually did according to some sources.

Then of course there is Lightfoot's "For Loving Me".


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 05:55 PM

Don't forget French Leave, French Letters, French Fries, French Kiss and the English Disease. Not to mention Spanish Influenza, Dutch Treat, and Hong Kong Flu.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 06:25 PM

Or Czech Mate.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 07:18 PM

Ooooooo . . . about time for Art to make another appearance, after that one!


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: Cool Beans
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 07:43 PM

I'm skeptical of that Blind Boy Fuller story. How hard would it be to avoid getting shot by a blind guy?


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: van lingle
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 07:51 PM

Now I gotta track down that song, Cool Beans. Seems like I read that in an interview with Gary Davis somewhere. A blind street singer who also used to carry because, he said, people kept stealing his guitars.


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Subject: RE: Art's Politically Incorrect Songs - workshop
From: pavane
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 09:51 AM

WELSH is actually from a Saxon or German word meaning foreign, therefore doesn't really describe the inhabitants of Wales (Do you call yourself a foreigner?). I expect the origin of Welching is from the same word, rather than from any connection with the people (And there is a Welch Riesing grape, also nothing to do with Wales)

The DUTCH terms, by contrast, DO refer to the people, with whom were at war for many years. We have Dutch courage and double Dutch, as well as Dutch treat.

(We have lots of black sheep near where we live, and though not all are totally black, there are plenty which have more black than white in their coats.

They were probably of less value than white because the wool could not be dyed to other colours?)


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