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BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?

Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Mar 08 - 06:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Mar 08 - 05:38 PM
Mrrzy 03 Mar 08 - 05:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Mar 08 - 08:09 PM
heric 02 Mar 08 - 07:49 PM
heric 02 Mar 08 - 07:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Mar 08 - 07:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Mar 08 - 07:09 PM
artbrooks 02 Mar 08 - 06:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Mar 08 - 05:54 PM
Little Hawk 02 Mar 08 - 05:39 PM
artbrooks 02 Mar 08 - 10:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Mar 08 - 08:21 AM
Barry Finn 02 Mar 08 - 07:56 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Mar 08 - 08:31 PM
Mrrzy 01 Mar 08 - 05:54 PM
artbrooks 29 Feb 08 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,Brane 29 Feb 08 - 09:52 PM
Irish sergeant 29 Feb 08 - 03:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Feb 08 - 08:21 AM
artbrooks 29 Feb 08 - 12:06 AM
Big Mick 28 Feb 08 - 09:16 PM
Little Hawk 28 Feb 08 - 09:13 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 28 Feb 08 - 08:26 PM
Kim C 28 Feb 08 - 04:55 PM
number 6 28 Feb 08 - 04:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Feb 08 - 03:33 PM
Rapparee 28 Feb 08 - 03:33 PM
Barry Finn 28 Feb 08 - 03:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Feb 08 - 03:00 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Feb 08 - 02:44 PM
Barry Finn 28 Feb 08 - 02:16 PM
Mrrzy 28 Feb 08 - 01:05 PM
Amergin 28 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,number 6 28 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM
open mike 28 Feb 08 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,number 6 28 Feb 08 - 11:46 AM
wysiwyg 28 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Feb 08 - 11:17 AM
Joe Offer 28 Feb 08 - 11:11 AM
Lonesome EJ 28 Feb 08 - 10:54 AM
Big Mick 28 Feb 08 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,number 6 28 Feb 08 - 10:28 AM
artbrooks 28 Feb 08 - 10:26 AM
katlaughing 28 Feb 08 - 10:10 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Feb 08 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,number 6 28 Feb 08 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 28 Feb 08 - 10:06 AM
John MacKenzie 28 Feb 08 - 09:59 AM
Amos 28 Feb 08 - 09:58 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 06:09 PM

Darn! Great grandparent doesn't qualify.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 05:38 PM

Anyone with a parent or grandparent born in Ireland is an Irish citizen.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 05:31 PM

Interesting about the honeymoon. My twins were made in Ireland. Does that entitle them to Irish citizenship if we have to emigrate or something?


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 08:09 PM

Your added point was worth posting.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: heric
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:49 PM

Oh, sorry Q, you're already on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: heric
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:47 PM

This has affected my ancestors more than once over the centuries. The first Congress (1790 - after the Constituion was drawn) encated a provision saying: "The children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens." There's an exception to this about when the parents had never lived in the United States. My father was retroactively granted his lifetime citizenship at age 73 (after he was able to prove that his mother had her honeymoon at that waterfall place north of Seattle.) Equal (gender) protection once had to be litigated. Equal protection for the Schwarzennegar type of situation could also be litigated someday.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:30 PM

The First Congress, March 26, 1790, approved an act that declared, "The children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural-born citizens of the United States."
Ken Rudin, Washington Post, July 9, 1998, "Citizen McCain's Panama Problem?"


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:09 PM

But "naturalisation" can only relevant in a situation where someone is not a "natural born citizen", but is to be given citizenship.

It is quite distinct from registration, which is basically a method of recording certain facts - the facts being that someone has been born at a particular time and place with particular parents. It is surely by virtue of those facts that the person is a citizen, not by virtue of the registration, which is just a convenient way of proving them.

As I said, the lawyers could have a great time with this.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 06:32 PM

We (in the US) have this peculiar thing called "administrative law". The way it works sounds arcane, but it is really very simple: Congress makes the laws, the Federal agency with jurisdiction for that particular area makes the regulations which institute or apply that law, and then the regulations have the force of law, unless somebody sues the agency and the court finds that the regulation is contrary to the law it was supposedly promulgating. In this case, the Constitution, in Article I, Section 8, gives Congress the right to "establish a uniform rule of naturalization" and everything else follows from there...it is all somewhere in Title 8, US Code, but I would have to be getting caffeine intravenously to want to browse through there.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 05:54 PM

Doesn't say anything in the Constitution about that registration process. That's just an administrative procedure. Could that really overrule a Constitutional right? The lawyers could have great fun anyway.

What's the case law on this? Surely someone must have tried it by now, and appealed against any decision based on that administrative process.

In Irish law, for comparison, they might like to have children born abroad be duly registered, but if that hasn't happened it doesn't affect the right to citizenship based on an Irish parent or grandparent. And if they tried to bring in such a requirement it would be thrown out as unconstitutional.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 05:39 PM

The real pity of it is that Arnold Schwarzenneger can't legally run for president of the USA. Just think what that would be like on Mudcat discussions.... ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 10:09 AM

As I understand it, that is entirely true McGrath - providing that the child was immediately acknowledged and registered by the American parent. There is a process for that. I am inclined to doubt that, say, a forty-year-old Korean man who came to the US and announced that he is the love child of a soldier who was stationed in Korea in 1967 would have much luck!


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 08:21 AM

Reading around it seems to be that "natural born citizen" probably means being a citizen at the time of your birth, either because a parent is a US citizen, or because you are on US soil at the time. But it's never been formally defined, so it might mean something else, with the Supreme Court having the final say if it came to that.

If that is correct any foreign born child of an American - say a GI or Marine in Vietnam or Korea or Germany - is entitled to US citizenship, and could run for President.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:56 AM

Natural born alien, native nothing, welped as a war child & reared by an Admiral. Given 'em das boot & float him out to sea. Good riddens to bad rubbish. Doesn't matter wher he was born or who he was born to, he's not what we need or want. I'm gunnng for "Ol Hickory"or "O'Bummer", my 2 favorites.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:31 PM

It's a very odd term "natural born" - what's it supposed to exclude? Apart arguably from Caaesarian births and so forth, which I rather assume aren't what it's about, how can any birth be other than "natural".

If they've put "native born" it'd be clear what was intended, though there'd be room for the kind of arguments in this thread. But "native born" - what on earth (or Mars) is that supposed to mean? Was it a drafting error maybe?


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:54 PM

It's official - it was reported on NPR now. If his parents had to do any paperwork to get him a US passport, as seems likely, then he is naturalized and cannot be president.
If they just didn't bother and nobody cared, as also seems likely, then he squeaks by. Or maybe we can have him retroactively deported! Let's!


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:00 PM

Brane, the point was gotten long ago: the child of a US citizen born outside the borders of the United States is a "natural born" citizen, regardless of whether he or she is born in another sovereign nation, a territory of the US or on some other plot of ground occupied by the US under some kind of treaty. Come the day, a child of a US citizen born on Mars would be covered by the same rule.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: GUEST,Brane
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:52 PM

I don't think any of you are getting the point.

The issue isn't that his parents may or may not be from the United States,

The issue is whether or not 'natural born citizen' includes the area of the Panama Canal that the United States may or may not have had sovereignty over.

So, telling stories about how your father was born in Canada, or whether or not he's a citizen.

Anyone can become a citizen, not everyone can be a natural born citizen.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:59 PM

Like it or not, John McCain is and has been since his birth a citizen of the United States. In his case, even if one of his parents had been foriegn born he would have had the choice of citizenship until he was 21 . I know this because I was born inthe United States but my father was born in Canada. Both parents were United States citizens so it is a moot point. He is legally a natural born citizen of the UNited States and is eligible to stand for president. Neil


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:21 AM

teapot? Surely it's always been a tea-cup.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 12:06 AM

Tempest in a thundermug?


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 09:16 PM

tempest in a toilet.............Spaw???? ....... you out there, Spaw??????? ....... c'mon, buddy, you ain't had a setup like this since you introduced us to Reg and the boys........Spaw???????...... need a little help here, buddy.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 09:13 PM

I don't give a toot where he was born. And neither does my dachshund.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 08:26 PM

I greatly resent Big Mick's calling this "controversy" a "tempest in a teapot" in his post above. I derive a substantial portion of my livelihood from the sale of teapots. A well executed teapot is the epitome of the potter's art. Calling this bit of idiocy a "tempest in a teapot" is an insult to teapots everywhere. If you must use a "tempest" metaphor, please refer to it as a "tempest in a toilet".


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:55 PM

Natural-born and native-born may not necessarily mean the same thing. If his parents are US citizens, that makes him a US citizen at the time of his birth regardless of where it took place.

At least that's how I understand it. Not that I really care, though, because I ain't voting for him anyhow.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:09 PM

I should clarify when I stated "I don't give a rat's ass about Mccain" I meant I don't agree with his politics, or nor do I endorse his running for presidency ... but I do respect his courage, his inner strength that led him surivive his time spent in the Hanoi Hilton. He was treated much more severly than the rest of the guests due to his family connections. All in all I certainly wouldn't mock him or belittle the guy or question his 'citizenship' regardless where he was born.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 03:33 PM

Finn's brains? Obviously sweepings from under Dunderbeck's Sausage Machine.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 03:33 PM

McCain's plane set fire to USS Forrestal, July 29, 1967, Yankee Station, off Vietnam:

    Lt. Cmdr. Robert "Bo" Browning one of the pilots due for launch with many others, he was seated in the cockpit of his fueled and armed Skyhawk; the plane was spotted way aft, to port. Lt. Cmdr. John S. McCain III said later he heard a "whooshy" sound then a "low-order explosion" in front of him. Suddenly, two A-4s ahead of his plane were engulfed in flaming jet fuel — JP-5 — spewed from them. A bomb dropped to the deck and rolled about six feet and came to rest in a pool of burning fuel.

    The awful conflagration, which was to leave 132 Forrestal crewmen dead, 62 more injured and two missing and presumed dead, had begun.

    As the searing flames, fed by the spreading JP-5, spread aft and began to eat at the aircraft spotted around the deck, Lt. Cmdr. Browning escaped from his plane. He ducked under the tails of two Skyhawks spotted alongside his and ran up the flight deck toward the island area. Twice, explosions knocked him off balance. But he made it.

    The fire soon enveloped all the aircraft in its wake. It spread to the fantail, to decks below. Bombs and ammunition were touched off in the midst of early fire-fighting efforts. Black, acrid smoke boiled into the sky. Other ships on Yankee Station sped to the aid of the stricken carrier.


The "wooshy" sounds were determined later to be missiles from McCain's plain which had somehow fired themselves. With the aircraft all crowded for takeoff on the stern....

None of this is say or imply that McCain did this deliberately!


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 03:09 PM

"MaCain and his parents"
What parents? Those aren't his parents, & what about the other parent?
He was born in a canal?

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 03:00 PM

The Canal Zone was returned to Panama in 1999, long after McCain and his parents left, re-assigned elsewhere. His father was Admiral John Sydney McCain Jr., USN, born Indiana, mother Roberta (Wright) McCain, born in Oklahoma. McCain is a graduate of the U. S. Naval Academy.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:44 PM

The Panama Canal Zone was U. S. administered- under the jurisdiction of the United States. Even the postal administration of the Zone was established by act of U. S. Congress in 1904, postage stamps overprinted "Canal Zone" at first, but later with designs selected for them. Rates were U. S. currency.
Only recently was the administration of the Canal turned over to Panama (which itself was a U. S. invention, taken from Colombia).

All children born of U. S. parents working or stationed in the Canal Zone are U. S. citizens.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:16 PM

MaCain may have been born on-base but his parents were off limits & never were citizens to start with! Does anyone know for sure if even one out of the tree were even in the military? If so was one of the tree on-leave? I don't believe they were even humans! Why does he have tree parents? Is he derilous or just discharging?

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 01:05 PM

Well, no matter where you're born, at least one of your parents *is* there, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM

In order to be born on a base overseas and be a natural born citizen, at least one parent in the armed forces needs to be on the base as well. If the child is born and the the parent in the military is elsewhere, such as Iraq or Afghanistan, then the child would need to become a naturalised citizen.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM

Here's the poop (for those that are interested) regarding the citizenship of children born to U.S. military personel stattioned overseas.

It's from the Office of the Judge Advocate Camp Zama, Japan.

"Birth Outside the U.S. to U.S. Parents
A child born overseas may also be a U.S. citizen if one or both of its parents are citizens. Children born overseas have to meet certain requirements to gain citizenship, and the child's parents have to register the birth at a U.S. embassy or consulate as a consular report of birth abroad. For U.S. military personnel and their dependents, this report is filed through the Military Personnel Office"

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: open mike
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:09 PM

"Natural born" could mean that your mother didn't have a Caesarian section.--well, that leaves Caesar out.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:46 AM

Not that I give a rat's ass about Mccain, but I find that this thread did prompt a question ... the citizenship of the children of U.S. military born overseas. Tempest in a teapot or not it is a question that I wouldn't mind knowing the answer to.

Anyway I found this in wikipedia concerning McCain, it pretty well establishes the answer to the question ...

"John McCain, who ran in 2000 and is running in 2008, was born at the US military base Coco Solo in the Panama Canal Zone to U.S. parents. The Panama Canal Zone was under United States sovereignty between 1903 and 1979 but was unincorporated."

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM

Wikipedia:

Article Two of the United States Constitution

Clause 5: Qualifications for office No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

By the time of their inauguration, the President and Vice President must be:

<> natural born citizens (or citizens at the time of the Constitution's adoption) <> at least thirty-five years old <> inhabitants for at least fourteen years of the United States.

The Twenty-second Amendment also prevents a President from being elected more than twice.

The natural born citizen clause is a subject of debate. No law or court ruling has ever established the precise definition of a natural born citizen. It is generally agreed that a natural born citizen of the United States is any person born in one of the 50 states or the District of Columbia. But it is not firmly agreed[citation needed] if this definition should also include persons born in United States overseas territories or persons born to United States citizens living abroad. To date, no such person has been nominated for President or Vice President by a major political party, although some serious candidates for nomination (most recently George W. Romney, who was born in Mexico, and John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone) have fallen into the area of uncertainty. There is currently a movement to abolish the natural born citizen clause and allow immigrants to be President, thereby also eliminating the controversies regarding the definition of natural born. It has received exceptional support from California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger who was born in Austria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Clause_5:_Qualifications_for_office


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:17 AM

"Natural born" could mean that your mother didn't have a Caesarian section...


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:11 AM

Be careful what you wish for, Mrrzy. We could get another Bush...


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:54 AM

Why would we want to oust McCain anyway? He's definitely the best of that bunch.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:33 AM

This comes down to the term "natural born citizen" as it is used in the context of the Constitution and its amendments. For a scholarly, yet easy to understand, explanation read this. McCain is a "naturl born citizen" and will have no problems. Tempest in a teapot.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:28 AM

Thanks for that clarification Art.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:26 AM

Number 6, that is an incorrect assumption. Bases, and the people on them (military or civilian) have whatever legal status the treaty (and they are all different) between the US and the host nation give them. Even Guantanamo is held under the provisions of a treaty.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:10 AM

My niece told me her son, born in Italy, whilst her husband was serving in the Air Force, has automatic dual citizenship. I don't know if they had to sign any special papers or not, but he is considered a US citizen.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:09 AM

any US citizen parent of a child born outside the US has only to go through a simple registration process for that child to be a citizen.

I suppose they have checked that they actually did that?


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:06 AM

Aren't U.S. bases considered 'U.S. soil' wherever they are?

Maybe I'm wrong with this assumption.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:06 AM

So Mrzzy--you think Clinton can get past BHO to get to Huckabee? I'd like to think so, but I wouldn't put a huge amount of money on it.

CC


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 09:59 AM

Oh Art, you punctured my dreams.


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Subject: RE: BS: McCain not born in US, legally??!?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 09:58 AM

Citizenship is not soil-dependent.


A


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