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EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant

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johnadams 01 Oct 07 - 06:17 AM
treewind 01 Oct 07 - 06:37 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 01 Oct 07 - 06:40 AM
Ruth Archer 01 Oct 07 - 07:05 AM
Folkiedave 01 Oct 07 - 10:38 AM
The Sandman 01 Oct 07 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Sapper on the Flying Banana (NMT) 01 Oct 07 - 02:32 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Oct 07 - 02:40 PM
Ruth Archer 02 Oct 07 - 02:35 AM
Richard Bridge 02 Oct 07 - 03:07 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Oct 07 - 03:11 AM
the button 02 Oct 07 - 04:37 AM
RoyH (Burl) 02 Oct 07 - 07:55 AM
The Admiral 02 Oct 07 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,Elfcall 02 Oct 07 - 08:51 AM
The Sandman 02 Oct 07 - 09:53 AM
Surreysinger 02 Oct 07 - 02:58 PM
The Borchester Echo 02 Oct 07 - 03:59 PM
Alan Day 02 Oct 07 - 05:46 PM
Folkiedave 02 Oct 07 - 06:14 PM
Folkiedave 02 Oct 07 - 06:26 PM
Mo the caller 03 Oct 07 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 03 Oct 07 - 11:40 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Oct 07 - 01:29 PM
BB 03 Oct 07 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,Brian Peters 04 Oct 07 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,LTS Pretending to work 04 Oct 07 - 06:43 AM
The Sandman 04 Oct 07 - 06:48 AM
greg stephens 04 Oct 07 - 08:32 AM
Richard Bridge 04 Oct 07 - 11:54 AM
The Sandman 04 Oct 07 - 12:37 PM
greg stephens 05 Oct 07 - 08:37 AM
The Sandman 05 Oct 07 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Elfcall 05 Oct 07 - 09:32 AM
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Subject: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: johnadams
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 06:17 AM

Extract from Press Release

Hundreds of folk songs and tunes, representing a huge swathe of English traditional music heritage, are on their way back to the communities that gave birth to them.

The Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) has awarded a grant of £154,500 to the English Folk Dance and Song Society (EFDSS) for an exciting new project entitled Take 6. The grant will enable the EFDSS to archive and conserve six unique folk song manuscripts and make them more widely accessible to the public, including some of the communities where they were first collected.
The six manuscript collections are held by the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library of the EFDSS, based at Cecil Sharp House in London's Camden Town.

The award will enable the EFDSS, over the next two years, to archive and conserve over 4,400 paper items, digitise them and make them widely accessible through the web. The EFDSS will also pilot the use of the materials in London, in conjunction with a primary school in Southwark which has a history of promoting singing games – an annual festival there in the 1960s led to an album of recordings on the prestigious Topic Records label. Two of the manuscript collections will be used in primary schools and communities in two English regions where the songs were originally noted – Lancashire and Hampshire.

The Take 6 project will also produce classroom materials and exhibitions and the EFDSS will work in partnership with regional folk development agencies and volunteers to bring the songs to life for young people and hold showcase events in schools.

More in on the web site


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: treewind
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 06:37 AM

Sounds wonderful. Congratulations!

Anahata


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 06:40 AM

Excellent news! Thanks for the heads-up John, and also for all your fine work over the years.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 07:05 AM

Eagerly awaiting the thoughts of Dick Miles...surprised he's not been in to congratulate EFDSS yet, actually.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 10:38 AM

John I think this is absolutely terrific. A couple of weeks ago as I remember I posted that the magazine looked like that of an organisation that was going somewhere and should be supported and that people involved were starting to make a difference to the EFDSS.

You could do this quickly given loads of money or the society could evolve slowly given enthusiasm and support. Clearly others have recognised this.

Well done.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 02:26 PM

Ruth,
Have only just got to the computer.Congratulations, EFDSS.
Well done to all the people who have worked hard to acheive this.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: GUEST,Sapper on the Flying Banana (NMT)
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 02:32 PM

Well done all involved!
Makes a change to days gone past for EFDSS to be given some credit for it's work!


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 02:40 PM

Excellent!

Next, the repeal of the licensing requirement for the performance of folk music and song.

After that a rule that apportions PRS and MCPS earnings for arrangements of folk music and song 9/10 to the original and 1/10 to the arranger - and gives teh 9/10 to the EFDSS or other designated archives or relevant projects.

Then sponsorship (maybe from Richard Branson?) for a set of recordings of Child Ballads with suggested melodies - let's try not to have too many from Martin Carthy, wonderful though he is, so that those of us who cannot dance in 17/4 while playing a guitar part in 5/4 get a chance -

After that some populist recordings of folk songs with contemporary arrangements. I know Stock Aitkin and Waterman are now old hat, but think on. Take some competent modern rockers into the studio with cut-down ballad lyrics and a mean riff (or a rapper with "Pretty Belle") and make some recordings that might get onto the R1 playlist -
(think sort of "Cotton eyed Joe", but as an arrangement of "Swaggering Boney) -

Next resurrect the education remit for public service broadcasters and make them play some of this fine stuff -

Nuada and their drone work at Glasto - or Reading - or Leeds -

Middle English lyrics for death metal bands -


Oooh, I must think some more!


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 02:35 AM

Not sure the point you're trying to make, Richard...


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 03:07 AM

Funding -
Outreach


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 03:11 AM

Right...


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: the button
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 04:37 AM

Well done for getting this. I've been involved in putting together a bid for Lottery money, and know something of the hard work this entails.

Also, well done for putting together such a good, imaginative project in your funding bid.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 07:55 AM

Congratulations EFDSS. Much maligned but still essential IMHO. Burl.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: The Admiral
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 08:41 AM

Sometimes the maligning is deserved Burl, but nevertheless on this occassion - Well Done EFDSS!


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 08:51 AM

Congratulations - brill news

I hope you have put in a good wodge of core costs in there too !

Elfcall


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 09:53 AM

Much Maligned?
the past management deserves some criticism,those that have turned/turning things round now, have got my praise.well done again.
However if anyone feels that EFDSS should be criticised,they should feel free to do so,even if I wanted to[which I dont],I would feel intimidated to do so.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 02:58 PM

Middle English lyrics for death metal bands .... do Glory Strokes include any such in their stage act?? Haven't yet heard or seen them in action, but they must be the closest we've got..

Oh and yes... great news ! (:-)


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 03:59 PM

GloryStrokes (all one word), 'a well oiled machine, come to kill you all'.
Jolly good.
Do it, Sheffield.
List of targets supplied on request.

As for the jobs, don't bother to apply unless you have the PG library diploma.
I did the course, but didn't turn up for the exam.
I'd just done a nightshift in a TV news library.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Alan Day
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 05:46 PM

Great News and well done to the EFDSS new forward thinking committee.
There was some evidence of the hard work being done for modernisation of Cecil Sharp House and the EFDSS as an organisation in a recent discussion on this site,outlined by John Adams.
Well done John, onwards and upwards.
Al


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 06:14 PM

The name "Glorystrokes" came from Pete Smith of Sheffield City Morris and Grenoside Sword Dance Team.

And it has nothing to do with Middle English - trust me on that one. His reward was a Sample CD and I was in the car when he first played it. He took it back. Not into punk, thrash metal ceilidh music, our Pete.

Currently on the way to Australia via bus. Escaping Glorystrokes I heard......


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 06:26 PM

Apologies for the thread drift.

Dave


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Mo the caller
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 11:24 AM

Well done, let us hear how it goes in the local schools


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 11:40 AM

"After that a rule that apportions PRS and MCPS earnings for arrangements of folk music and song 9/10 to the original and 1/10 to the arranger - and gives teh 9/10 to the EFDSS or other designated archives or relevant projects."

Yes, just the job, Mr. Bridge, why not take away the precious royalties that help me to sustain a career in traditional music? Since you're interested in Child ballads, would you agree that I should keep only 10% of the royalty for my arrangements of them - which often run to extensive reworking of both tunes and lyrics, never mind instrumental accompaniments?

But that's off topic. Excellent news as far as EFDSS is concerned.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 01:29 PM

The following is simplified.

The PRS collects the same amounts for contemporary songs, non-copyright songs, contemporary songs arranged by others, and non-copyright songs arranged by others. Oh, and non-copyright words with copyright music attached, and non-copyright melodies (and arrangements) with copyright words attached.

Where an arrangement (or new words) is with copyright material, then the division of such proceeds is allocated between the two (or more) copyright owners (well, actually, performing right owners) in the proportions they have agreed. If one has more "clout" he might get 90%. If I wanted to arrange a song by Andrew Lloyds-Bank, or one in which Cameron Mackintosh owned the rights, if I could get permission at all, that would be the BEST likely outcome for me AND in practice I would be forced to assign my copyright in my arrangement to them in consideration of the income stream I got. Those rightsowners preserve and promulgate their works as they see fit.

Where the "song" (curiously, copyright law does not recognise such a thing as a "song" that is to say a combination of words and music, but protects the musical work separately from the literary work) has non-sopyright words or music, all the money goes to the owner of the relevant rights in the copyright work.

When (as it does) the PRS coerces payments for the use of wholly non-copyright material, the money goes into "the black box" (ie non-attributable income: there is also a thing called "the grey box") and black box income is usually paid out to all those receiving PRS money pro rata to the money they get from the PRS. Well, some of it goes to support SECAM's swimming pool (this is only partly a joke).

So NONE of the money generated via PRS from non-copyright music goes to support, preserve, promulgate, etc that non-copyright music. In view of the cultural importance of much of that non-copyright music, that cannot be right.

I suggest that in the case of a Child ballad, the cultural value of the contribution of a modern tunesmith is likely to be about 10% of the cultural value of the whole. In the case of an arrangement of Greensleeves (let us imagine Davy Graham's Bluesleeves) I argue that the value of the contemporary arrangement is 10% of the whole.

The money derived from the non-copyright material should go to an organisation that protects preserves and promulgates the non-copyright material. It would better our cultural heritage. Sorry, Mr Peters, but that is to me (and to , I suggest, the country) more important than your economic wellbeing.

That is my case. Yours presumably is that you do more to protect preserve and promulgate in practice England's (and Scotland's and Wales') musical and lyrical cultural heritage than the EFDSS and the colelctions like the Vaughan Williams collection, and the Baring-Gould collection do. I wonder whether even Martin Carthy could make that claim.

It wasn't just a "flip" suggestion. The figures may be debatable but it seems to me a very good way to provide long-term support for our musical archives, and it has at least two possible advantages, first that it would encourage the EFDSS to put its treasurechest into play (imagine Congleton Bear" treated like Black-Eyed Peas' (it was them, wasn't it) version of "Cotton Eyed Joe") and second that it would not need primarly or secondary legislation only a rule change by the PRS. The snag is that the PRS is controlled by music publishers, so they might need their arm twisted more than a bit.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: BB
Date: 03 Oct 07 - 03:11 PM

Fantastic news, John. Let's hope this is just the beginning of 'proper' funding for the Society.

Barbara


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 06:07 AM

"That is my case. Yours presumably is that you do more to protect preserve and promulgate in practice England's (and Scotland's and Wales') musical and lyrical cultural heritage than the EFDSS"

Er..... Where did I say or even imply that? It just seems to me that funding an organisation founded to preserve and promulgate our musical heritage (I'm a member, of course) by taking money out of the pockets of musicians who actually play the stuff is a curious way to go about it. And it occurs to me that a decision to award the copyright of Public Domain material (what, all of it?) to the EFDSS might not pass uncontested.

The hit version of "Cotton Eyed Joe" was by The Rednex, by the way.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: GUEST,LTS Pretending to work
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 06:43 AM

There is a Choral Public Domain library that has "copyright" on a lot of choral harmony music. They maintain a website I can't link to from this computer, but it's free to join and you can see, listen to performances of, download, save PDFs and print out all for free. Each piece is 'copyrighted' by CPDL with the disclaimer on it that it may be freely copied, stored, distributed and performed.

To allow EFDSS to "copyright" traditional music in the Public Domain would not be a bad thing, if it were regulated and serviced as the CPDL does. I'm pretty sure that preserving and mainaining such a wealth of music, making it available to all could do nothing but good for both the genre and EFDSS. They can start with the book Nutty recently acquired, published in 1811!

LTS


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 06:48 AM

I agree, Brian.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 08:32 AM

May I register my total agreement with Brian Peters, and my total disagreement with Richard Bridges on his plausible but totally misconceived idea of giving the EFDSS 90%the out-of-copyright money.
Would that be 90% of the Bach money? No, that probably ought to go to Germany. Perhaps 90% of the Dowland money? Hang on a minute, didn't someone reckon he might be Irish?Oh, perhaps you only mean 90% of the "no known composer" money.So, the EFDSS should get the money, unless someone researches and discovers the composer? So, what happens then? Nobody gets the money? Or yet more new legislation? Well, let's face it, all music must have a composer(or several composers). So why should the EFDSS get the money only if the identity can't be established? I think your ideas need a little refining, Richard.
I have spent 40 years researching traditional English music, and then passing it on to other people, normally totally unpaid. Now, if I can occasionally get half-a-crown royalties for putting "Trad Arr. Stephens" on a CD cover, well good luck to me, I say.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 11:54 AM

PRS has SCARPRA A and SCARPRA B agreements with participating foreign collecting societies for copyright works from those places, system could be extended.

The arrangers of non-copyright music would still get their pennorth via the PRS for their arrangements, just as they would if they arranged copyright music.

Other countries had DPP categories ("Domaine Publique Payante"). Why not us and use it to do some good?


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Oct 07 - 12:37 PM

Greg Stephens is right,


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 08:37 AM

Richard Bridges: can you elaborate on your strange scheme a bit? Will Purcell recordings attract royalties that will go to the EFDSS?And if not Purcell royalties, what other royalties? "Folk song" royalties? Perhaps you would care to define "folksongs"? (ha ha ha).
Actually, your scheme could be of enormouse personal benefit to me. It might deprive me of a few pence in royalities, but I think I might pick up in other directions. I am(if I may be so immodest) what passes for a bit of an "expert" in the matter of old English instrumental tunes, so I might get some fees as an expert witness when the EFDSS is in litigation with performers over these rights you wish to allocate.
    I think I might be just the sort chap to provide the background information on whether "Kershaw's Hornpipe" was in fact written by Joseph Kershaw, or by someone else entirely (even anon?).Remember, it's not always that easy to prove who did or did not write a two hundred year old song. A grand field for expert witnesses, not to mention lawyers. The lawyers, of course, are always the real winners from half-baked ill-thought out legislation.That is why lawyers advise the government on drawing up new laws, presumably.


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 08:57 AM

on the subject of lawyers, how about a visit to www.crooked layers.com


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Subject: RE: EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 09:32 AM

CB

I have known a few crooked layers in my time too !

Elfcall


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