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Songs illegal to sing in Ireland

Gudrun Miller 28 Sep 07 - 04:22 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Sep 07 - 04:49 AM
Dead Horse 28 Sep 07 - 05:00 AM
Malcolm Douglas 28 Sep 07 - 05:07 AM
PMB 28 Sep 07 - 05:13 AM
Wolfgang 28 Sep 07 - 05:27 AM
Wolfgang 28 Sep 07 - 05:33 AM
Liz the Squeak 28 Sep 07 - 05:37 AM
John MacKenzie 28 Sep 07 - 05:47 AM
Mr Happy 28 Sep 07 - 05:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Sep 07 - 05:50 AM
Mr Happy 28 Sep 07 - 05:52 AM
Mr Happy 28 Sep 07 - 05:55 AM
Mr Happy 28 Sep 07 - 05:57 AM
Liz the Squeak 28 Sep 07 - 06:01 AM
Mr Happy 28 Sep 07 - 06:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 07 - 06:10 AM
Ruth Archer 28 Sep 07 - 06:16 AM
JulieF 28 Sep 07 - 06:50 AM
Ruth Archer 28 Sep 07 - 07:20 AM
Emma B 28 Sep 07 - 07:26 AM
kendall 28 Sep 07 - 07:40 AM
Grab 28 Sep 07 - 08:46 AM
Leadfingers 28 Sep 07 - 09:37 AM
John MacKenzie 28 Sep 07 - 09:38 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Sep 07 - 10:57 AM
Ruth Archer 28 Sep 07 - 11:03 AM
GUEST 28 Sep 07 - 11:05 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Sep 07 - 11:12 AM
Emma B 28 Sep 07 - 11:35 AM
Ruth Archer 28 Sep 07 - 12:37 PM
The Sandman 28 Sep 07 - 12:44 PM
greg stephens 28 Sep 07 - 12:47 PM
Geoff Wallis 28 Sep 07 - 12:58 PM
JohnInKansas 28 Sep 07 - 01:30 PM
GUEST 28 Sep 07 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 28 Sep 07 - 03:05 PM
Mr Red 28 Sep 07 - 03:23 PM
Declan 28 Sep 07 - 03:31 PM
Liz the Squeak 28 Sep 07 - 06:35 PM
David Ingerson 28 Sep 07 - 09:52 PM
Canberra Chris 28 Sep 07 - 10:10 PM
Rapparee 28 Sep 07 - 10:32 PM
Mike Miller 28 Sep 07 - 10:39 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 Sep 07 - 11:05 PM
the button 28 Sep 07 - 11:38 PM
Liz the Squeak 29 Sep 07 - 01:49 AM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 29 Sep 07 - 02:43 AM
Liz the Squeak 29 Sep 07 - 02:50 AM
Malcolm Douglas 29 Sep 07 - 03:49 AM
John MacKenzie 29 Sep 07 - 04:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Sep 07 - 05:34 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 07 - 05:39 AM
John MacKenzie 29 Sep 07 - 05:41 AM
Fidjit 29 Sep 07 - 05:43 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Sep 07 - 05:44 AM
Leadfingers 29 Sep 07 - 06:10 AM
John MacKenzie 29 Sep 07 - 06:17 AM
Declan 29 Sep 07 - 06:57 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Sep 07 - 07:00 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Sep 07 - 07:03 AM
Declan 29 Sep 07 - 07:09 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 07 - 07:42 AM
Mike Miller 29 Sep 07 - 10:56 PM
Rapparee 29 Sep 07 - 11:07 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 Sep 07 - 06:32 AM
The Sandman 30 Sep 07 - 07:50 AM
Mike Miller 30 Sep 07 - 08:29 AM
The Sandman 30 Sep 07 - 11:53 AM
Big Al Whittle 30 Sep 07 - 12:49 PM
Geoff Wallis 30 Sep 07 - 12:57 PM
Mike Miller 30 Sep 07 - 02:43 PM
Susanne (skw) 30 Sep 07 - 05:23 PM
The Sandman 30 Sep 07 - 05:31 PM
Declan 30 Sep 07 - 07:56 PM
Mike Miller 30 Sep 07 - 11:22 PM
The Sandman 01 Oct 07 - 03:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 01 Oct 07 - 03:52 AM
GUEST,Henryp 01 Oct 07 - 08:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 07 - 09:08 AM
Shaneo 01 Oct 07 - 09:39 AM
Declan 01 Oct 07 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 01 Oct 07 - 03:59 PM
Mike Miller 01 Oct 07 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Young Buchan 01 Oct 07 - 05:09 PM
Malcolm Douglas 01 Oct 07 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,machree01 16 Nov 07 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 16 Nov 07 - 03:37 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Nov 07 - 04:31 PM
ard mhacha 17 Nov 07 - 04:59 PM
Stringsinger 17 Nov 07 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,Sheila 17 Nov 07 - 06:39 PM
ard mhacha 18 Nov 07 - 05:57 AM
The Sandman 19 Nov 07 - 05:51 AM
The Sandman 19 Nov 07 - 06:00 AM
The Sandman 19 Nov 07 - 06:00 AM
Malcolm Douglas 19 Nov 07 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,Young Buchan 19 Nov 07 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,PMB 19 Nov 07 - 07:19 AM
Leadfingers 19 Nov 07 - 07:37 AM
Leadfingers 19 Nov 07 - 07:38 AM
Brendy 19 Nov 07 - 10:07 AM
Brendy 19 Nov 07 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,Philippa 19 Nov 07 - 11:23 AM
alison 20 Nov 07 - 12:29 AM
pavane 20 Nov 07 - 02:27 AM
pavane 20 Nov 07 - 02:28 AM
GUEST,Jim carroll 20 Nov 07 - 03:18 AM
Jon Bartlett 20 Nov 07 - 03:45 AM
ard mhacha 20 Nov 07 - 04:47 AM
Malcolm Douglas 20 Nov 07 - 05:00 AM
greg stephens 20 Nov 07 - 05:08 AM
greg stephens 20 Nov 07 - 05:16 AM
The Sandman 20 Nov 07 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,PMB 20 Nov 07 - 06:08 AM
MartinRyan 20 Nov 07 - 06:10 AM
The Sandman 20 Nov 07 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,PMB 20 Nov 07 - 08:14 AM
Brendy 20 Nov 07 - 08:18 AM
Brendy 20 Nov 07 - 08:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 07 - 09:12 AM
Brendy 20 Nov 07 - 09:18 AM
Brendy 20 Nov 07 - 09:35 AM
ard mhacha 20 Nov 07 - 12:58 PM
The Sandman 20 Nov 07 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Fritz Dinglebopper 20 Nov 07 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 20 Nov 07 - 02:19 PM
MartinRyan 20 Nov 07 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Hmm 20 Nov 07 - 02:54 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 Nov 07 - 03:00 PM
Kent Davis 20 Nov 07 - 10:36 PM
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Subject: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Gudrun Miller
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 04:22 AM

Hello all--
I read in the reissue of the Clancy bros first album that for many years it was illegal to sing most of the material in Ireland. What other songs are illegal in Ireland?


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 04:49 AM

Agadoo, The Birdie Song.....


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Dead Horse
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:00 AM

rofl Good answer :-)


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:07 AM

Those two songs ought to be illegal everywhere. So far as the original question is concerned, beware of believing everything you read on a Clancy Brothers record sleeve.

Were any specific songs mentioned? Although many songs are widely believed to have been 'banned' at various times and in various countries, the people who believe such things rarely seem to be able to provide evidence beyond hearsay and old wives' tales; and they are rarely quite sure by whom such songs were 'banned', or when, or why, or how; they just feel sure that they were.

Real evidence, of course, is always welcome.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: PMB
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:13 AM

I suspect that the Horst Wessel Lied is illegal in Germany.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:27 AM

You made me curious, wld, and I did google and now I know: My God, you also have that dance! Ducks' Dance is what we call it.

I doubt that recently many songs have actually been illegal in Ireland though some songs were(are) not played by RTE which is something different. Due to threat of legal action Christy Moore was forced to take one song off the tracklist of one of his recordings.

But it is easy to fill a whole double CD with songs that (if you go far enough back in time, let's say roughly a century or more) have been illegal in Ireland. There are reports that people have been sentenced to spend time in jail for even whistling the tune of illegal songs. That may be what the text on the record sleeve means.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:33 AM

PMB,

you're right. That and (I think) several others. Exception: Historical films, theaters etc.

Playing the Horst Wessel tune only could be a very difficult case for the state attorney, if one (correctly) claims that one was playing the older (very unknown) folktune from which the Horst Wessel tune was taken.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:37 AM

Now if it were Irish songs it should be illegal to sing....



The list would run to thousands!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:47 AM

Oh no! Not the Fields of Athenry !
G.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:48 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birdie_Song


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1PgL0DjqjgU


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:50 AM

That was the Christy Moore song about the fire in the night club, a wasn't it? I think the night club owbers took out an injunction - but that's not exactly illegal.

there are lots of cases where legal action has been used to muzzle an artist (in very country)- but that's not like the executive of the country banning something.

there was some kerfuffle in Ireland about the Python's song Every Sperm is Sacred.........I'm not sure what that was.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:52 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bU6p0m0E0LM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agadoo


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:55 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9DkqU-uWojc


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:57 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Sperm_Is_Sacred


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:01 AM

'Every Sperm is Sacred' wasn't exactly banned, but as the scene immediately following in 'The Meaning of Life' talked about contraception, it was frowned upon by the Catholic Church in many countries.

'Life of Brian' on the other hand WAS banned with many cinemas refusing to show it in the Republic. I have a southern Irish friend who took a trip north over the border risking all manner of indignities, just to see the film.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:05 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:10 AM

"Many cinemas refusing to show it" isn't quite the same as being banned.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:16 AM

Does anyone remember the Father Ted episode that spoofed rural cinemas banning films? Hilarious.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: JulieF
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:50 AM

down with that sort of thing


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 07:20 AM

Exactly.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 07:26 AM

Quite a lot of international literature was banned in Ireland in the mid 20thC including books by -                               Beckett
Joyce
Brendan Behan
Austin Clarke
J.P. Donleavy
John B. Keane
Walter Macken
John McGahern
Brian Moore
Edna O'Brien
Kate O'Brien
Sean O'Casey
Frank O'Connor
Sean O'Faolain
Liam O'Flaherty

"References to records or songs being "banned" in Ireland refer to one or more radio stations refusing to play the songs rather than any legislative ban although prior to 1989 it may have been a moot point given the only legal broadcasting stations in Ireland were those operated by state broadcaster RTÉ." - Wikipedia


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 07:40 AM

Down with everything that I don't like.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Grab
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 08:46 AM

Easy now.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 09:37 AM

Bearing in mind that The I.R.A is still an illegal organisation in Eire , following them declaring war in The Irish Free State after partition , it is quite possible that singing any song that glorified what the I.R.A. did would be at least frowned on !


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 09:38 AM

I think it's just the way you sing them Terry ;-)
G.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 10:57 AM

In actual fact there are still some extremist cells operating in remote parts of Ireland where Agadoo, The Birdie Song, Una Paloma Blanca and Viva Espana are routinely sung.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 11:03 AM

"Bearing in mind that The I.R.A is still an illegal organisation in Eire , following them declaring war in The Irish Free State after partition , it is quite possible that singing any song that glorified what the I.R.A. did would be at least frowned on !"

You're joking, right?


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 11:05 AM

Just a point of clarification, but James Joyce's works were never banned in Ireland, though copies of 'Ulysses' were hard to come by until it was published in the UK. Extracts from the novel were banned for some fifteen years in the US - see http://www.jamesjoyce.ie/detail.asp?ID=19 .


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 11:12 AM

They would have banned Joyce if they got their hands on his books, but the English impounded all the copies bound for Ireland. see how we look out for you - your reputation for doing something mean like that is unsullied.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 11:35 AM

ooops! sorry, it was the film version of Ulysses that was banned in Ireland for over 30 years since being filmed in Dublin in 1967.

The book was never actually "legally" banned in Ireland but as it was only published in Paris and banned in both the UK and the US copies were not widely available.

I don't think that any of the pubs that I've joined in singing sessions in Ireland in the last 30 years frowned upon IRA songs - they were usually sung with great gusto!


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:37 PM

that's what I meant too, Emma, re the IRA songs...


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:44 PM

It may not be illegal,but it would be very unwise to sing [o for the orange and the lily o],in the republic.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:47 PM

There certainly have been many places where it would have been inadvisable to whisle Lilliburlero, The Sash, or Croppies Lie Down.And other places where the Wearing of the Green, St Patrick's Day or the Shan van Vocht would have been similarly contra-indicated.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:58 PM

The 1967 film of 'Ulysses' was not given a certificate for general release in Ireland until 2000, but it was available for private showing in Irish film clubs before then. I don't think that the novel was ever actually banned in the UK, but just took a hell of a long time to get published there.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 01:30 PM

Ulysses was banned in the US by order of the Postmaster General. One report (Petersen) asserts that in the court decision that ordered the PG to lift the ban the judge stated that it "is not obscene, just incredibly boring."

John


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 02:56 PM

RE: Horst Wessel Lied

http://www.google.de - with the restriction to only return pages written in German.

RETURNS and many of them MP3

HORST is alive and well in the Brave New World.

Sincerely,


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:05 PM

One of the books on the Church's notorious index was the Irish classic 'The Tailor and Ansty' by Eric Cross.
It's a while since I've read it and it may seem fairly innocuous now but it is superb and deserves to be read by everybody.
Of course one of the urban (do I mean urbane?) legends was that the song McCaffery carried a threat of imprisonment if sung by a serviceman in the British Army - totally untrue .
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:23 PM

I have heard it said that whistling the tune was eventually made illegal , because songs known to be nationalistic were given innocent lyrics but some contained loade words like linnet as in "She sang each note like an Irish linnet". and linnet was a naughty word. Well code for feinian supporter. Jim Maggean said it. I am sure there was a regular lexicon associated therefore. Consequently those songs were considered contentious and thereby the tune was a code to say "up yours".

Set dancing was similalry frowned on. The way I heard it was that it was danced at cross roads with musicians mouthing the music so that if the police arrived they could only cathc 1/4 of the dancers - but what if four officers arrived? A tall tale maybe.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Declan
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:31 PM

There is no legal mechanism for banning songs in Ireland.

Section 31 of the Braodcasting act was used to prohibit the braodcast of material which supported the activity of illegal organisations on the national broadcaster RTE. I'm not sure if this ever extended to pro-Republican songs, but it may have done. Sinn Féin leaders were banned from appearing on RTE in much the same way as actors were used to voice statements from them on British TV channels. Section 31 is still in force but the relevant orders have not been active for a number of years. Sinn Féin is legal political party in the Republic and many of their members, who have admitted to IRA activity in the past often feature on RTE policial programs.

There was heavy censorship of most literary and film material in Ireland up to the 1960s and the Catholic Church had a big say in what was banned. I would think that more material was banned because of alleged sexual content than to do with political content - unless of course it was deemed pro Communist. Thankfully Ireland is a very different place these days. Even "The Life of Brian" is freely available here nowadays. I still remember the night in about 1982 when we got a bootleg copy (on Betamax) of TLoB and laughed ourselves silly when we heard that Biggus Dickus ranked with the highest in Wome.

There was a very interesting interview with a member of the censorship board (around 1967) in Peter Lennon's file "The Rocky Road to Dublin" which was re-released a couple of years back after having been banned for nearly 30 years. The film was shown on RTE last Christmas. Some of the younger members of our family could not believe that Ireland had been like that less than forty years ago.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:35 PM

Interesting that 'linnet' was considered a naughty word. A linnet is green finch, and it was also the nickname of the Dorset Regiment, from their old style red jackets with bright green facings.

Curious how these things come about.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: David Ingerson
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 09:52 PM

Just out of curiosity, I read all the indexed references to "music" (there were none for "song") in Seumas MacManus' The Story of the Irish Race. There is no mention of any banned or illegal songs or music. Of course that does not prove anything, but I picked that history off my shelf because of its slant: "to put some of the necessary knowledge and pride in the minds and hearts of his people." And also because of its emphasis on the cultural aspects of Irish history. I figured that if songs had indeed been banned, an author like MacManus would be most likely to mention it. No mention.

I also just finished reading Georoid O hAllmhurain's A Pocket History of Irish Traditional Music. Unfortunately, the book has no index, but I don't remember anything about banned songs. (Again, that doesn't prove anything--just an indication.)

It seems to me that the times most likely to have songs made illegal might have been during the Elizabethan reign, when, if I'm remembering correctly, Irish harps were systematically destroyed. Or possibly during the period of the Penal Laws with the songs of the Jacobites. But is there any evidence?

My guess is that rather than specific songs being made illegal, it was probably risky to sing or whistle certain songs because you might get beaten by a Peeler, say, or some other enforcing authority. That's not really the same as being illegal.

Cheers,

David


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Canberra Chris
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 10:10 PM

I think there is rather more to this from a longer historical perspective.

Patrick Galvin's 'Irish Songs of Resistance' Oak Publications, 1962, starts with the introductory paragraph:

"The Irish are famed as a nation of singers: not choral singers like the Welsh, but soloists - for folk-memories are long, and there was a time when for Irishmen to meet together, and to attract attention to themselves by singing their national songs in chorus, was to court imprisonment or death. For that matter, solo singing, or even whistling, of certain Irish airs has been a punishable offence within living memory."

Tantalisingly, he makes no specific reference to songs or laws, except to lyrics being presented in court as evidence of sedition. For example in 1844

(Daniel) "O'Connell, Gavan Duffy and others were arrested and charged with forty-seven different seditious acts, six of which were publications in The Nation, one of these being John Kells Ingram's poem The Memory of the Dead (''Who Fears to Speak of Ninety-Eight'). All were fined and sentenced to six months imprisonment, but the sentences were quashed by the House of Lords."

These are then high profile events with discoverable historical documentation. The Memory of the Dead is also sung, as are many of the poems first so published: "Above all, it (The Nation) published innumerable poems, all of which could be and were sung."

Patrick Galvin's book certainly appears to be detailed and scholarly, setting the songs in the historical context - it is in effect a history of political conflict in Ireland illustrated by the songs of the period.

Less directly he refers to the practice of disguising nationalistic songs as love-songs to a 'woman' (Dark Rosaleen etc) who is code for Ireland. He also refers generally to the wholesale banning in Ireland of virtually everything Irish under the Penal Laws, it is hard to imagine that song would have been excluded.

The first body of songs I sang at 12 or 13 was from that Clancy Brothers' early album referred to at the start of this thread, then just bought by a schoolfriend's parents. The first song I sang in public performance was The Rising of the Moon, at a folk concert in Skopje Macedonia televised across the Balkans (it's a long story!). They loved it.

The only songs I have ever been asked not to sing, ("We're not having those songs sung here") were Irish rebel songs, once in a pub in Manchester, and once in a private home. Who fears to hear of the Ninety-Eight?

Cheers,
Chris


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 10:32 PM

Here's a link to the Index Librorum Prohibitorum (1948 edition, and the last) of the Catholic Church.

Eric Cross isn't listed, but an awful lot of stuff is. Most of it I wouldn't read for love nor money.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Mike Miller
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 10:39 PM

I had some hassle singing "Take It Down From The Mast, Irish Traitor", a republican song that condemns the Free State. If you listen to the words, you will understand why it made some folks nervous. It was a favorite number among the Provisional IRA members.
Another incendiary song was the republican version of "Let Him Go, Let Him Tarry" Here's the first verse and chorus.

Jack Lynch come up from Dublin with his band of merry men.
He marched 'em up to the border, then, he marched them back again.
Ah, such an armored column, boys, the like you've never seen.
Five hundred mounted bicycles, all wearin' of the green.

Let him go, let him tarry. Let him sink or let him swim.
He don't give a damn for us so, why should we, for him.
He sits on his ass in Dublin and I hope he does enjoy
Selling out his country for he's England's little boy.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 11:05 PM

If you've only been asked not to sing rebel songs once or twice - you've not done many gigs.

The whole Irish Independence question is not one that is as supremely simplistic as sloganeering songs pretend. All kinds and conditions of honourable men and women have occupied all sorts of opinions.

To have the part one's parents, grandparents or oneself has played dismissed (albeit in song) as acts of black hearted villainy can really upset people. And these songs have been known to cause fights - fights in which (as one landlady put it to me) somehow the people who are least capable of taking care of themselves, can get hurt.

Showing a decent respect for the sensitivities of others is not really in the same ball park as Hitler burning the books. Would you say...?


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: the button
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 11:38 PM

I certainly wouldn't want to sing a song celebrating the achievements of a set of sectarian gangsters in their struggle against another set of sectarian gangsters. But I wouldn't want them banned, either.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 01:49 AM

I think we've all seen instances where banning something makes it more popular (Jasper Carrott and his 'Funky Moped' record and the BBC for one), so making it 'illegal' is not the answer.

These inflammatory songs and music should be allowed to fade away until all memory of their meanings and the reason for their writing is lost.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 02:43 AM

There is no evidence whatever that McCaffery was ever illegal.
Paul Smith wrote an excellent long article on it in the 'sadly defunct' folklore magazine from Leeds University (Folk Notes?) where he discusses the issue and said he could find no evidence whatever.
I don't know how accurate it is, but Lomax claimed that the Genoese form of choral singing Tralaleri developed from the time of the Garabaldi uprisings when it was illegal to sing revolutionary songs.
Genoese dockers would sit in groups outside coffee houses and la-la the tunes in defiance of the ban. Eventually, like mouth-music, it became an art form in itself.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 02:50 AM

Garibalid uprisings? Is that what you get after eating too many squashed fly biscuits?

LTS


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 03:49 AM

Re Galvin's comments quoted above.

There is a big difference between committing an act of sedition that may include music, and that music in and of itself being illegal; the context and the intent are the significant factors, I would think, in any prosecution for sedition. It may be significant that, while Galvin makes broad, generalised claims, he avoids specifics. Surely if he knew a piece of music or song to have been proscribed by law at some point, he would have given details? I suspect that folklore rather than history may just perhaps have provided his 'living memory', though of course specific examples, if such exist, would be welcome.

'McCaffery' isn't the only song about which such rumours have circulated. As chance would have it, I picked up some old copies of English Dance and Song the other day. In the edition for Autumn 1972, Sam Richards was quoted as saying that 'a Devon singer' who sang him a version of 'The Young Sailor Cut Down in his Prime' told him not to say where he had heard it, 'in case the police traced him'.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 04:13 AM

Funny how a thread that started with such a naff, and uninformed question has thrown up some interesting posts. Along with one extremely funny one, thanks Big Al.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 05:34 AM

The law's a funny thing I remember reading that for the last few years of his life, Alex Harvey (he of the Sensational Alex Harvey Band) was so tied up by lawyers that he was not allowed even to perform any of the songs that had made him popular.

That kind of legal mess isn't a ban. Or is it? Like the Christy Moore story - its something pretty nasty.

Alex was one hell of a character onstage. I saw him one time at Birmingham Odeon, and he came onstage in a smoking jscket - looking like a professor of some kind.   He was carrying a bunch of red tulips that he handed out to the front rows of the crowd.

Then he got down on his haunches and said conspiratorially to the gang, this first song is called Actionstrasse and its a bit of fun. But if someone comes to you anytime and tells you seriously to be a Nazi - I want you to you come and tell your Uncle Alex, and I'll kick the shit out of him......

Vambo Rools..!


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 05:39 AM

Mike Miller,
Jack lynch,was one of the most honest politicians,Ireland has had,Unlike Charles Haughey,and the present Taoiseach.
And any suggestions he was any more pro English,Than any other Taoiseach shows the stupidity of the song,whereas a rebel song like The Bold Fenian Men,is an example [imo]of a really fine song.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 05:41 AM

Anybody else listen to the story of the song 'Flowers in the Rain' by The Move the other day?
Very interesting indeed, has to have become one of the biggest fines in legal history.
G


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Fidjit
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 05:43 AM

Was once in Sligo visiting a non-folk musical sister of a girlfriend. Suggested we find a session in the town. There were lots but it was the wrong night for most of them.

Eventually found one in a dark and dismal upstairs bar. Got the beer, sat down to join. As my eyes got acustomed to the light I saw the posters on the walls around me.
Kept my mouth shut (Me being a Londoner) and held a low profile, Drank up and left.
Posters told the tale that it was the local branch of the IRA!

Chas


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 05:44 AM

Talking of the film Ulysses - did you notice that Stepehen Dedalus was played by Maurice Roeve, who played the self conflagrating Vinnie in Tutti Frrutti?


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:10 AM

Fidgit - I was asked to dep on Guitar for a gig in a pub - VERY Irish but my sospicions were cofirmed when the had a collection for 'The Boys ' and finished the evening with 'The Soldiers Song' Withthe entire audience standing to attention ! And that was in a pub thirty miles from London !!


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:17 AM

I had a similar experience in Kingston-Upon-Thames Terry.
G


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Declan
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:57 AM

Leadfingers,

"The Soldiers Song" is the Irish National Anthem. It is traditional for it to be sung at the end of the night at Irish gatherings all over the world. Most Irish people stand to attention when it is sung. It doesn't confirm that you're in the middle of a meeting of the local provos. In fact some extreme republicans refuse to stand for it because they believe the Republic has not yet been acheived and that there should therefore not be a national anthem. I have often been in situations where God Save the Queen was played and everyone stood up. It doesn't mean they were all die hard BNP supporters.

The collection for the boys is a different matter.

Christy Moore's song, which was recorded on his "Ordinary Man" album concerned a fire at a disco in a venue called "The Stardust" in north Dublin where almost 50 young people were burned to death on St. Valentine's night 1981. Christy's song included the line "All just because the fire exits were chained". The owners of the Stardust (members of the Butterly family) went to court as they were denying that the fire exists had been changed. As far as I can remember the legal argument was that (a) they contended that the fire exits had not been chained and (b) even if it was the case that this was not the sole factor in the fact that the people were killed.

On the 25th anniversary of the fire last year the Butterlys tried to opena new pub on the stardust site. The local people took this to be a particular snub to the victims and boycotted the opening. The famalies are still trying to have a full enquiry into the tragedy set up.

Christy lost the case and had to remove the song from the Album - which was re-released with a replacement song called "A new song is Born". The original version of Ordinary Man with "They Never Came Home" is something of a collectors item.

As far as I remember Christy included the Stardust song on his Boxed set a few years back.

To the best of my knowledge, Christy remains the only person to come before the courts in relation to the Stardust tragedy.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:00 AM

they always stand to attention through the Soldiers Song. Nothing sinister intended. Most musicians are glad of it, as it draws a line under the evening!


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:03 AM

If you find people standing up for GSTQ, you are in the wrong place. Its a fair indication of card carying prattishness.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Declan
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:09 AM

That should be "the fire exits had been chained" and not the "fire exists had been changed" - and I can't even blame the spell checker.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:42 AM

wld, I agree with you,infact in the late 1950swhen I wasayoung lad,GSTQ was played at cinemas,my parents insisted that we did not stand.
If I was good enogh to play for the english football team[Iwould refuse to sing GSTQ.
I always stand for the Soldiers Song.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Mike Miller
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 10:56 PM

Captain Birdseye has, alas, missed the point of the thread. Why would he think an anti-Engand song would be illegal or, even, unpopular in Ireland. Mais non, mon capitan. Songs in disfavor would be critical of the Irish Free State or the Republic of Ireland, itself. Both song I mentioned ("Take It Down From The Mast, Irish Traitors" and "Let Him Go, Let Him Tarry") are songs of unreconstructed rebels who oppose the partition and Dublin's apparent acceptance of a British state in Ireland. The Irish republicans have a very different view of Jack Lynch than does the Captain. While they admire his skill as a hurler, they were, to say the least, disappointed in his lack of action in the matter of the Falls Road in 1969. Nor are they thrilled with the cooperation between the Special Branch and the UK. I have not offered my opinion on the politics of the situations. I was saying that those two songs raise quite a few hackles in Dublin Castle. (Castles in the Eire?)

                         Mike


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 11:07 PM

Chorus:
Whatever you say, say nothing
When you talk about you know what
For if you know who could hear you
You know what you'd get
For they'd take you off to you know where
For you wouldn't know how long
So for you know who's sake
Don't let anyone hear you singing this song

And you all know what I'm speaking of
When I mention you know what
And I think it's very dangerous to even mention that
For the other ones are always near
Although you may not see
And if anyone asks who told you that
Please don't mention me

And you all know who I'm speaking of
When I mention you know who
And if you know who could hear me
You know what he'd do
So if you don't see me around
You'll know why I'm away
And if anyone asks you where I've gone
Here's what you must say

Well that's enough about so and so
Not to mention such and such
I think I'll end my song now
Sure I've already said too much
For the less you say, the less you hear
And the less you'll go astray
And the less you think, the less you do
And the more you'll hear them say


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 06:32 AM

Presumably some people voted for Jack Lynch - the song wouldn't have been popular with them.

Being unpopular isn't being banned - though it can sometimes feel like it.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 07:50 AM

Speech by Jack Lynch, Irish Taoiseach, following violence in Derry,
13 August 1969
It is evident that the Stormont Government is no longer in control of the situation. Indeed the present situation is the inevitable outcome of the policies pursued for decades by successive Stormont Governments. It is clear, also, that the Irish Government can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured and perhaps worse.
I have not said that an anti English song would be illegal in Ireland,I am just saying that The song about Jack Lynch [IMO] is not accurate.what was JackLynch supposed to do[invade the north]
Republicanism is something I support,but the sort of republic, I want is more in line with Jim Larkins ideals,Than Charles Haughey,Why replace one set of exploiters [the English],with someone else trying to feather their own nest, Charles Haughey and his side kick Bertie Ahern [ Bertie Yet to be proven,but IMO up to his neck in it ],or is it ok for the Irish to be exploited providing its the Irish that are doing it.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Mike Miller
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 08:29 AM

Captain B, what you are discussing is your own political views. That's fine but the thread, as I understood it, was about songs that are seen as seditious by the Irish government. When I lived in Ireland (1968-1970), these were the "impolite" songs and singing them was enough to elicit suspicion and attention from the Special Force. This is not hearsay. I received notice from the Castle for visiting an old and placid Cathal Goulding.
And, yes, the Provos did expect the Irish government to come to the aid of endangered Irishmen on Irish soil. They were not placated by Jack Lynch's speeches in Free Derry. They felt betrayed. So they, expressed their disappointment in song, surely, a more humane protest than Michael Collins faced. That is the setting for these songs and, whether you agree with the sentiments or not, they are appropriate entries for this thread. Illegal or "inapropriate songs are, by nature, born in anger.
I have, recently, learned quite a bit about President Eisenhower. It turns out that he was a brilliant and compassionate man who was the first to identify, what he called, the "military-industrial" complex. I have listened to recordings of his speeches and I was moved and impressed by his obvious sincerity but that has not stopped me from singing anti-Ike songs like "The Talking Little Rock Blues" or recognizing complicity of ommision in the matter of Joe McCarthy.

                     Mike Miller


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 11:53 AM

yes, you are right.
However what the provos expected,no Irish taoseach could have delivered.,IMO That is why it is not a very good song.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 12:49 PM

Not sure if that's right, captain.

I mean, I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony - its a decent song, but its not gonna happen.

the fact that the proposition contained in a song is impractical - doesn't affect its quality as a song.

Its a bit like the people who sing, Come on you Spurs....

a certain idealism and indifference to the realities of the situation are inherent in the situation.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 12:57 PM

Jack Lynch did not speak in Derry in 1969, though he did address the Irish viewing nation in a speech broadcast by RTÉ that year after the Battle of the Bogside, part of the text of which can be found here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Lynch#Northern_Ireland


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Mike Miller
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 02:43 PM

Mr Wallis is correct. Jack Lynch did not speak in Derry. I phrased that badly. I should have said speeches about Free Derry and the Bogside. Hell, I'm not sure if Jack Lynch knew the road to Derry.
In any case, the republicans in the north felt sold out by the Government in Dublin as can be seen in the second verse of the song.

Jack, where were you last August, with your band of merry men?
Were you in the Bogside, were you on the Falls Road then?
Ah no, you were down in Dublin, tellin' all you knew
On every Irish soldiet who could hold a gun, it's true.


                  Mike


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 05:23 PM

I'm not going to join the debate. Just one small point:

The song Rapaire quotes above (29 Sep) is Colum Sands' 'Whatever You Say , Say Nothing'. I trust he isn't suggesting the song was in any way banned in Ireland but is merely commenting on the debate.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 05:31 PM

Mike Miller.          The speech went as follows:

The Irish Government can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured and perhaps worse. It is obvious that the RUC is no longer accepted as an impartial police force. Neither would the employment of British troops be acceptable nor would they be likely to restore peaceful conditions, certainly not in the long term. The Irish Government have, therefore, requested the British Government to apply immediately to the United Nations for the urgent dispatch of a Peace-Keeping Force to the Six Counties of Northern Ireland and have instructed the Permanent Representative to the United Nations to inform the Secretary General of this request. We have also asked the British Government to see to it that police attacks on the people of Derry should cease immediately.

Very many people have been injured and some of them seriously. We know that many of these do not wish to be treated in Six County hospitals. We have, therefore, directed the Irish Army authorities to have field hospitals established in County Donegal adjacent to Derry and at other points along the Border where they may be necessary.

Recognising, however, that the re-unification of the national territory can provide the only permanent solution for the problem, it is our intention to request the British Government to enter into early negotiations with the Irish Government to review the present constitutional position of the Six Counties of Northern Ireland.

These measures which I have outlined to you seem to the Government to be those most immediately and urgently necessary.

All men and women of goodwill will hope and pray that the present deplorable and distressing situation will not further deteriorate but that it will soon be ended firstly by the granting of full equality of citizenship to every man and woman in the Six Counties area regardless of class, creed or political persuasion and, eventually, by the restoration of the historic unity of our country.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Declan
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 07:56 PM

Strangely, that speach is known as Jack Lynch's "Stand Idly By" speeach although he never used the word idly. There are many such speaches which are commonly misquoted.

Whether or not sending the Irish army across the border at that point would have worked has been the subject of much debate ever since. There is an argument that says such a border incursion would have forced the hand of the UN to send in a neutral peace keeping force, which may have some merit. As it happened the British army was sent in as a peace keeping force but were not perceived as being neutral for very long.

The altenative scenario is that the Irish army would have been defeated by the NI security forces, which I don't think would have had as positive a conclusion.

Some of Mr Lynch's ministers were alleged to have tried to import some arms for the minority community in the North. Lynch acted against these moves and sacked the Ministers in question, who included Charles Haughey. This resulted in the 1970 arms trial, in which the defendents were acquitted. The sacking of the Ministers added considerably to Jack's unpopularity in republican circles.

WLD Jack Lynch's Fianna Fail party achieved the biggest ever majority in Irish electoral history in the 1977 general election which shows he wqas very popular among his own supporters. Within 3 years of that election he had been ousted as Fainna Fail leader and replaced by CJ Haughey.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Mike Miller
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 11:22 PM

I am not debating the efficasy of Lynch's leadership, his character and his commitment to the republican cause. It is enough that he angered a constituancy enough to cause them to sing about him, which is, after all, the subject of this thread. There are those, in this very forum, who disparage their own leaders. Sic semper the way the world goes 'round. Political leaders will have their admirers and their songwriters. Live with it.

                   Mike


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 03:48 AM

ok, Mike.Thanks Declan for your post very informative.
I have just finished reading Tom Barrys biography,again very informative,I wonder if Tom Barry had been leading the provos campaign, whether we would have seen different results in the north.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 03:52 AM

So what are we talking about here.

If it was written by Colum Sands presumably it got as far as a commercial professionally produced recording. so was it banned from the airwaves by some broadcasting authority?

or was it just inadvisable to sing in some places...?

I wrote this song once called The Day Delaney's Donkey had Sex with The Pope. (always loved dear old Val Doonican!)

The first time I played it I made the mistake of telling the audience I was pissed off with the RC church that week and that's how I'd come to write it. I was lucky to get out alive.

the nest time I did it, I didn't explain anything, and the audience just accepted it as a light hearted piece of ribaldry.

And its the last time I play a Eucharistic Conference.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 08:56 AM

My daughter was in the Brownies in England. She was also learning to play the tin whistle at Ceolthas Ceoltori classes, and decided to take the test for her music badge playing the tin whistle.

What does she need to know? asked her teacher. Two pieces in different times and the National Anthem, I said. Well, said the teacher, she knows a jig and a reel and can already play the National Anthem. Yes, I thought, but the tester will probably not be expecting The Soldier's Song. I taught my daughter God Save the Queen myself.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 09:08 AM

Sounds like the Provisional Wing of the Brownies to me.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Shaneo
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 09:39 AM

The song 'Admiral William Brown' by The Wolfe Tones was banned in Ireland.
The song was released in 1981 while the British army were going off to reclaim the Malvina's/Falklands after Argentina took them back
The song slagged off the British and was banned by the Irish government which at the time controlled the national airwaves.

When the music charts were being counted down and the d.j. got to the No.1 song he [Larry Gogan RTE]would say, and for the eight week at No1 it's The Wolfe Tones with Admiral William Brown and mutter some words like, we cant play the song because of section 23 of the broadcasting act, blaa, blaaa,

Paddy McGuigan of The Barleycorn was interned on The Maidstone Prison Ship just for writing Irish songs, while interned there he wrote The Men Behind The Wire, which was banned but when released went straight to No1 in the Irish charts.
They are just 2 examples of Irish songs that were banned


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Declan
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 02:04 PM

Shaneo,

They were banned from RTE which was essentially the only broadcasting outlet at the time, so they were banned in that sense. But it wasn't illegal to sing them and no one was arrested for writing or singing them, at least in the Republic.

Internment in the North was a very blunt instrument and its hard to say exactly why anyone was imprisoned, given that they didn't have to be charged with anything.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 03:59 PM

Digressing slightly,
During the BBCs mopping up campaign in the 50s two Irish songs, 'Lord Leitrim' and 'Just As St Peter's Day Was Dawning' were recorded.
When they were archived they were designated an 'S' number indicating that permission had to be obtained before they could be broadcast.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Mike Miller
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 04:34 PM

I am reminded that there was a song (They're Coming To Take Me Away) that was pulled from air play back in the mid 1960's. It was composed, performed and produced by a friend of mine named Jerry Samuels, recording under the name, Napolean XIII. Jerry tells me that, in the few months it was heard on radio, it sold over a million copies. The radio stations pulled it when they received angry calls from mental health orginizations. Had they known Jerry as I do, they would have been much more tolerant.

                      Mike


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Young Buchan
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 05:09 PM

I accept there is no evidence that singing MacCaffery was ever illegal, although until very recently the idea lived on among traditional singers that it was. Jim Eldon once told me a story about recording from an old gypsy singer three verses of MacCaffery which were so mangled as to make them wholly unrecognisable and incomprehensible, and yet then confidentially announcing that 'you can go to jail for singing that!'

But there was a song praising Richard Parker the executed leader of the Royal Navy mutiny at the Nore in 1797, and I believe there is some evidence to suggest that ratings were subsequently charged with sedition for singing it on board ship. The only bit I can remember off the top of my head is:
Farewell Parker, you bright angel.
Once you were old England's pride.
Although that you were hanged for mutiny
The worse than you are left behind.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 05:28 PM

'The Death of Parker' was widely published on broadsides, and was certainly never illegal anywhere. It's possible that singing it in the Navy may have been a disciplinary offence at some point, but as I tried to explain earlier, that's a completely different matter and would have depended on the local context.

Nobody so far has come up with an example of a song proscribed by law anywhere (except for the particular case of Nazi songs in Germany), far less in Ireland; where, I suspect, our original questioner was probably thinking vaguely of songs 'made illegal' by the Wicked English before the establishment of the Republic.

Does anybody know of any identified examples (titles, please) and what the statutes concerned (if they existed) were?


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,machree01
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 10:10 AM

South of The Border {down Mexico way} written by Jimmy Kennedy and Michael Carr. i heard was banned at one time.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:37 PM

As far as I know there are no songs which are actually illegal in Ireland nowadays, but there is the story told to me by a friend who was in Crotty's Bar in Kilrush in County Clare during a football match between England and Yugoslavia.
The crowd watching the game were cheering enthusiastically for England and their victory was greeted with loud applause, but when 'God save The Queen' was played at the end, two pint glasses sailed through the air from different parts of the room and landed through the screen of the TV.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 04:31 PM

'you can go to jail for singing that!'.....

Though only if you're nicking the lead off the church roof while you're singing it.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 04:59 PM

Tommy Sands song `Whatever you say say nothing`, has nothing to do with politics, this is an old saying long in use in the north of Ireland, it simply a means of preventing someone `rapping your bake`.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 06:22 PM

Having songs be illegal and having them banned may be two different things.

"Waist Deep in the Big Muddy" was banned from American TV in the Sixties and "Old Man Atom" was banned by the FCC in the Forties. No one was arrested for singing these
songs off the media.

Some might resort to violence on the singing of some songs however.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 06:39 PM

What's "rapping your bake"? Translate, please for the U.S. reader.
Thanks. Sheila


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:57 AM

Shelia something like, `a dig up the gub`.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:51 AM

But there was a song praising Richard Parker the executed leader of the Royal Navy mutiny at the Nore in 1797, and I believe there is some evidence to suggest that ratings were subsequently charged with sedition for singing it on board ship. The only bit I can remember off the top of my head is:
Farewell Parker, you bright angel.
Once you were old England's pride.
Although that you were hanged for mutiny
The worse than you are left behind.
this song is available on my cd Nautical and can be purchasedhttp://www.dickmiles.com


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 06:00 AM

Jim, I find your story funny,but also sad.In the sense,that it still has to matter,It will be agood day when we have a unified Ireland,and God Save The Queen,will no longer arouse such a reaction.
Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 06:00 AM

ioo,sorry leadfingers.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 06:01 AM

See my post slightly earlier in this thread on that subject. If you have any evidence that singing it on board ship was at any time treated as a disciplinary offence, then I'd be glad to have chapter and verse; it's one of the songs in the next Hammond-Gardiner collection (The Wanton Seed) that I'm revising for re-publication, and that sort of background is always useful.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Young Buchan
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 06:23 AM

I will try, but it could be a long wait. I have just moved house and all my books are in boxes!


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:19 AM

But they don't sing GSTQ at the END of football matches- they sing it at the beginning...


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:37 AM

Puff the Magic Dragon was banned in Singapore , as was The RoofTop Singers recording of Walk Right In because of their supposed (By the Singapore Government) to be about drug taking !
And I KNOW this is thread drift !


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:38 AM

And it was a 100th post ! LOL


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:07 AM

I have a feeling that Serge Gainsborough's 'Je t'aime' was banned in Ireland at the time.
I can't think of anything that was banned in Ireland since the BBC banned 'God Save The Queen' by the Sex Pistols.
That was 1977

B.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:26 AM

During a festival in Germany last year, as part of our set, the guy I was playing with asked me to intro the verse of 'As Down By The Glenside - The Bold Fenian Men'. We were half way through it when the first pint glass landed limply in front of me...
I couldn't see through the lights but when we finished the song the perpetrator shouted up: "Do you know any good UVF songs?"

I just calmly said that to date there weren't any good UVF songs worth singing, but if he wrote one, I would surely considerate it.

Cardinal Tomás Ó Fiaich was well known for his rendition of 'The Old Orange Flute'.

B.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:23 AM

regarding Jim Carroll's last posting, a few (5??) years ago I was in a pub in County Mayo near Croagh Patrick and was very surprised to hear some visitors singing "Rule Brittania". The context was also a tv broadcast of a UK team playing football. I didn't observe any outspoken adverse reaction from anyone in the pub.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: alison
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:29 AM

Hi Brendy - long time no see!!

Relax - by Frankie goes to Hollywood was banned in the 80's (because of a "rude pic" on the cover....

"Too much too young" - by the specials or fun boy three (also 80's) was also censored as opposed to banned because of the line
"haven't you heard of the starving millions? haven't you heard of contraception?"

god forbid that we should have heard the word "contraception"

mind you I do agree that "Agadoo" should have been banned - and can I add a suggestion that so should the "Mr Blobby song"

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: pavane
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:27 AM

Rapaire
Thanks for the link to the Index Librorum Prohibitorum
You might (or might not) be interested to know that there is an ancestor of mine listed there. Samuel Chap(p)uzeau's book L'Europe Vivante, of which I have a copy, was banned in 1764.

Samuel Chappuzeau was my (10 x great)-grandfather. We don't actually know why the book was banned, but Samuel was a Calvinist.

The only musical link here is that as well as several plays, he wrote a Libretto in 1689. You can find him (and a link to a scan of the Libretto) in Wikipedia. Unfortunately, we only have the words, not the music.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: pavane
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:28 AM

That should say 1674, not 1764! Finger trouble


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Jim carroll
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:18 AM

"God Save the Queen'
'Cap'n'
Agree entirely with your sentiments, but as I don't believe in one, and object to financially supporting the other, I understand where the lads who threw the glasses were coming from.
May have already told this story, but when we were recording singers in Clare in the seventies we were in the home of two elderly brothers with a magnificent repertoire of songs between them.
We were given a great welcome by them, fed and watered (whiskeyed) and had used up three reels of tape when one sang us a political song 'The Manchester Martyrs'.
He then went into a diatribe about the English, how you waved to them on the road and they ignored you, how they never went to church, and concluded with "They'd eat a horse - on a Friday". Those were the days when it was forbidden to eat meat on that day.
He then immediately reverted back into his 'hospitality' mode.
We had a similar experience in Baltimore (the West Cork one); this would be the first time Pat and I went to Ireland together.
We were in a bar there celebrating a point-to-point victory with a newly-met acquaintance, when a local went into a whole soliloquy of rebel songs; there were dead Black-and-Tans in every corner.
After a while the singer joined us at the bar and asked us where we were from.
Pat (rather nervously) replied that her family were Scots, but we lived in London.
He threw his arms about both of us, told us of his brother who was a postman in Camden Town, and bought us drinks for the rest of the night
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:45 AM

Cap['n, I did a study of Parker a few years back - if you'd be interested, PM me and I'll send a copy.

Jon Bartlett


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:47 AM

Has anyone Googled song, banned by the BBC, one in particular had me laughing ,Richie Kavanagh`s, An focal eile, was banned because focal sounded like the F word.
How about Deep in the heart of Texas, banned on the Radio in the USA during WW2 because of the clapping part in the song, it interrupted the production line when the workers clapped along,and the BBC banned, Give Ireland back to the Irish,the Paul McCartney song.
Lonnie Donegan was banned from the BBC for singing an Irish rebel song as well as a couple with sexual content.

The banned songs on the BBC are numerous.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 05:00 AM

And are the subject, along with songs temporarily not played by various other radio stations in various other countries, of various previous discussions.

Can anybody think of a single example of a song which is, or has been, illegal (proscribed by law, not merely censored by the broadcast media) in Ireland? That is what Gudrun asked.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 05:08 AM

ard mhacha: Lonnie Donegan's "Nobody Loves Like an Irishman" was certainly banned by the BBC, but that was because of its humorous reference to the Koran, not because it it was a rebel song. It isn't.
    The only rebel song I recall him singing was "Kevin Barry", and I don't recall the BBC banned it.Did it really?


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 05:16 AM

Re Jim Carroll's various reminiscences here. Last year, during the World Cup, I was driving with the Boat Band through West Cork to play at a Cork couple's wedding. We flew the St George's Cross all the way through West Cork(or a small bit of it), and I am glad to report that nobody whatever shot at us from any hedgerows, Tom Barry and the Big Fella must have been elsewhere.We presented the flag to the bridegroom, but whether he proudly displays it in his house I am not sure.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 05:59 AM

Shame Greg,if you had let me know ,I could have arranged it for you,my 12 bore is in need of a bit of use.
going back to the subject ,the most likely era for something to have been banned[would have been when the bloody Long Fellow was in power,1950s]the idiot that altered the constitution to appease the Catholic church,removing womens rights,.
and the same fellow that attended Hitlers Funeral,the same one that set Micheal Collins up,and who in collusion with the catholic church,was responsible for the censorship of books and films,who presided over mass emigration,who let himself get involved in a trade war with england[without thinking it through],a nationalist reactionary.DickMiles


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:08 AM

I don't think Hitler had a funeral... and I'm pretty sure Michael Collins didn't set it up... there'd have been a song about it.

In a burning Berlin bunker, where a dying Fuehrer lay,
Michael Collins stood beside him, ere his soul should pass away,
And he faintly murmured Michael, as he grasped him by the hand,
Tell me Michael while I'm dying, shall my soul pass through Ireland?


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:10 AM

I would have thought that the point of the God Save the Queen example (and, of course, the likely reaction to singing, say, "Kevin Barry" in Portadown) is that the Irish don't need the law to decide which songs can be sung in public - they're only too capable of brutally deciding it for themselves!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 08:04 AM

guestPMB,Check out what DeVelera did when Germany conceded defeat at the end of the Second World War.,and his immediate trip to germany [at tax payers expense]
Micheal Collins had been dead for twenty five years.
DEvelera set Micheal Collins,up over the signing of the treaty.thus Micheal Collins famous quote,on signing it [Iam signing my death warrant].
DEvelera may not have been corrupt[like some of our other taoiseach,s]and he may have held Ireland together,But he prevented progress,and hand in glove with the catholic church,employed strict censorship of films, books[tailor and anstey],plays,etc
and is the most likely person to have censored songs.,therefore if anyone is seriously interested in pursuing this thread,that [develeras time in power]is the most likely time if at all that songs have been censored,other than Cromwell.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 08:14 AM

You've got that in a bit of a twist, Dick. He visited the German Legation in Dublin after Hitler's death- and he was the only head of state in the world to officially send condolences. It would not have been possible to vuisit Germany, which by then was almost entirely controlled by the Allies- and Berlin by the Russians.

De Valera almost certainly had no sympathy whatsoever with Nazi or German war aims, but was determined to tread the path of total neutrality he saw as necessary. I think he was mistaken, as did the thousands of Irish people who joined the British army or worked in our war industries. His cynical use of Catholic nationalism to further his own ends is a matter of record. See disgraceful shenanigins over the Mother and Child Act.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 08:18 AM

He he, Martin... Kevin Barry was one of the 'lighter' songs sung at the barricades in Portadown.... :-)

B.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 08:38 AM

ALISON!!!!
Long time, indeed. Hope the form is good.

Of course, I forgot about Frankie...

Was 'Only Our Rivers Run Free' banned in England, anyone know?

B.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 09:12 AM

The Soldier
by Harvey Andrew was banned by BBC, not sure about the rebel songs though.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 09:18 AM

Was it?

I do 'Margarita' from time to time.

B.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 09:35 AM

Apropos, 'The Soldier' Someone else has claimed he wrote it.
It is plagiarism, of course...., but I just thought I should mention it...

B.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:58 PM

Malcolm if you care to look through this Thread you will see a few Thread drifts, why comment on mine?, I thought my input was of interest.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 01:12 PM

ard mhacha,Because he is a ....
PMB,To send condolenceson Hitlers death was disgraceful,if they had won the war,he would have annihalated the Irish.He also turned down an offer from England[during the second world war] for independence,[how genuine the offer was, we will never know].


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Fritz Dinglebopper
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 01:32 PM

Someone has the Horst Wessel Lied included as sung by the Clancy Brothers?.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:19 PM

Some years ago we were at a singing session in Feakle, East Clare, when one of the company began to recite part of Merriman's poem, 'The Midnight Court'.
A Comhaltas adjudicator took great offence and stopped him from performing 'that gross pornography' in public.
The irony was that the event took place on the 200th year of Merriman's death and a few hundred yards from where he is reputed to be buried - hence the recitation.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:44 PM

Jim

I remember a similar incident, in Feakle, involving Paddy Tunney and a man who was reciting one of Brendan Kennelly's poems! Some delicious ironies there, alright. We're a funny lot.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: GUEST,Hmm
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:54 PM

I expect the Holy See didn't ban Hitler's books because of their tolerant and free-thinking attitude.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:00 PM

I wish my songs were well known enough to be banned, by anybody, of any race, anywhere.


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Subject: RE: Songs illegal to sing in Ireland
From: Kent Davis
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:36 PM

Soapbox Alert - Rant Ahead
It is such a blessing to be free. Why do we want to imagine that we lack, or once lacked, freedoms which we actually possess and have long possessed? There are NO songs which are illegal to sing in Ireland. If there are, why has no one cited the relevant statute? It looks as if there have been no songs which were illegal to sing in Ireland in living memory. I don't see much evidence that there have EVER been songs which were illegal to sing in Ireland.   
There is a difference between a government outlawing a song and a media outlet choosing not to promote a song. If we can't grasp this distinction, I fear for our rights.
(I am not Irish. I say "we" and "our" because the same sort of confusion exists in the U.S. Many American libraries have an annual "Read a Banned Book" promotion. The "banned" books are not illegal. They are books that private citizens thought were inappropriate for placement in libraries, usually school libraries. I guess "Read a Banned Book" makes a jazzier slogan than "Read a Book that Some People Would Rather the School Didn't Buy for the Sixth Graders".)
If those of us who support liberty can't grasp political distinctions, we can't win political debates. If we can't win political debates, our liberty will be lost. Then we will really have books banned in the U.S. and songs made illegal in Ireland.
Kent


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