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BS: Why are they leaving the UK?

pattyClink 22 Aug 07 - 09:47 AM
jacqui.c 22 Aug 07 - 10:03 AM
Sorcha 22 Aug 07 - 10:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Aug 07 - 10:16 AM
Bee 22 Aug 07 - 10:27 AM
The PA 22 Aug 07 - 11:41 AM
Paco Rabanne 22 Aug 07 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 Aug 07 - 02:11 PM
Megan L 22 Aug 07 - 02:26 PM
Linda Kelly 22 Aug 07 - 03:35 PM
The PA 23 Aug 07 - 04:11 AM
Folkiedave 23 Aug 07 - 04:20 AM
stallion 23 Aug 07 - 04:47 AM
Linda Kelly 23 Aug 07 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie 23 Aug 07 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,dáithí 23 Aug 07 - 05:39 AM
Mick Tems 23 Aug 07 - 05:44 AM
The PA 23 Aug 07 - 06:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Aug 07 - 09:08 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Aug 07 - 09:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Aug 07 - 09:56 AM
wysiwyg 23 Aug 07 - 10:00 AM
The Walrus 23 Aug 07 - 10:42 AM
skipy 23 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM
The PA 23 Aug 07 - 11:56 AM
The PA 23 Aug 07 - 12:01 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Aug 07 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Jonny Sunshine 23 Aug 07 - 01:54 PM
Scooby Doo 23 Aug 07 - 02:38 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Aug 07 - 03:14 PM
Ebbie 23 Aug 07 - 05:42 PM
skipy 23 Aug 07 - 06:07 PM
Linda Kelly 23 Aug 07 - 06:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Aug 07 - 06:34 PM
The PA 24 Aug 07 - 03:18 AM
MBSLynne 24 Aug 07 - 04:42 AM
Bonzo3legs 24 Aug 07 - 04:46 AM
ard mhacha 24 Aug 07 - 05:04 AM
John MacKenzie 24 Aug 07 - 05:11 AM
Stu 24 Aug 07 - 07:39 AM
John MacKenzie 24 Aug 07 - 08:20 AM
MBSLynne 24 Aug 07 - 08:21 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Aug 07 - 08:22 AM
The Walrus 24 Aug 07 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,watney's 24 Aug 07 - 06:58 PM
Backwoodsman 25 Aug 07 - 07:21 AM
Folkiedave 25 Aug 07 - 01:02 PM
Little Hawk 25 Aug 07 - 01:07 PM
Bonzo3legs 25 Aug 07 - 01:09 PM
Mrs.Duck 25 Aug 07 - 04:24 PM
Gurney 25 Aug 07 - 05:20 PM
Backwoodsman 26 Aug 07 - 06:53 AM
John MacKenzie 26 Aug 07 - 07:36 AM
folk1e 26 Aug 07 - 09:08 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Aug 07 - 01:42 PM
Little Hawk 26 Aug 07 - 02:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Aug 07 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cooquie 26 Aug 07 - 03:55 PM
Mrs.Duck 27 Aug 07 - 08:28 AM
John MacKenzie 27 Aug 07 - 09:10 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Aug 07 - 09:27 AM
John MacKenzie 27 Aug 07 - 09:34 AM
alanabit 27 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Aug 07 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Mrs Olive Whatnoll 27 Aug 07 - 02:25 PM
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robomatic 28 Aug 07 - 12:53 AM
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folk1e 28 Aug 07 - 04:04 AM
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Stu 28 Aug 07 - 07:18 AM
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Backwoodsman 28 Aug 07 - 09:17 AM
Stu 28 Aug 07 - 09:56 AM
Teribus 28 Aug 07 - 10:04 AM
folk1e 28 Aug 07 - 01:18 PM
John MacKenzie 28 Aug 07 - 02:43 PM
Stu 29 Aug 07 - 04:42 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Aug 07 - 09:53 AM
Folkiedave 29 Aug 07 - 03:28 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Aug 07 - 03:35 PM
folk1e 29 Aug 07 - 09:06 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 29 Aug 07 - 09:49 PM
Rapparee 29 Aug 07 - 10:08 PM
John MacKenzie 30 Aug 07 - 09:30 AM
Stu 30 Aug 07 - 10:28 AM
folk1e 30 Aug 07 - 06:54 PM
Teribus 30 Aug 07 - 07:26 PM
Little Hawk 30 Aug 07 - 08:10 PM
Stu 31 Aug 07 - 03:11 AM
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John MacKenzie 31 Aug 07 - 04:58 AM
Folkiedave 31 Aug 07 - 05:41 AM
Strollin' Johnny 31 Aug 07 - 08:07 AM
Folkiedave 31 Aug 07 - 11:02 AM
folk1e 31 Aug 07 - 12:40 PM
Teribus 01 Sep 07 - 04:18 AM
Folkiedave 01 Sep 07 - 04:51 AM
Stu 01 Sep 07 - 05:43 AM
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Teribus 01 Sep 07 - 06:21 PM
vectis 01 Sep 07 - 06:36 PM
Little Hawk 01 Sep 07 - 07:58 PM
folk1e 02 Sep 07 - 07:54 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Sep 07 - 09:55 AM
Folkiedave 02 Sep 07 - 10:38 AM
Folkiedave 02 Sep 07 - 10:42 AM
Teribus 02 Sep 07 - 09:01 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 02 Sep 07 - 09:53 PM
Stu 03 Sep 07 - 04:45 AM
Folkiedave 03 Sep 07 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,Hotspur 03 Sep 07 - 08:22 AM
Teribus 03 Sep 07 - 05:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 07 - 06:00 PM
Folkiedave 03 Sep 07 - 07:43 PM
Richard Atkins 03 Sep 07 - 09:08 PM
Teribus 04 Sep 07 - 01:33 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 04 Sep 07 - 02:18 AM
Folkiedave 04 Sep 07 - 05:34 AM
John MacKenzie 04 Sep 07 - 05:46 AM
Teribus 04 Sep 07 - 11:48 AM
Folkiedave 04 Sep 07 - 01:58 PM
John MacKenzie 04 Sep 07 - 02:24 PM
Backwoodsman 04 Sep 07 - 03:03 PM
John MacKenzie 04 Sep 07 - 04:42 PM
Teribus 04 Sep 07 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,Ed 04 Sep 07 - 06:32 PM
Folkiedave 04 Sep 07 - 06:56 PM
Stu 05 Sep 07 - 04:41 AM
John MacKenzie 05 Sep 07 - 05:17 AM
Folkiedave 05 Sep 07 - 07:12 AM
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Teribus 06 Sep 07 - 11:47 AM
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Backwoodsman 06 Sep 07 - 12:37 PM
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Stu 06 Sep 07 - 01:20 PM
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Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Sep 07 - 08:51 PM
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Subject: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: pattyClink
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 09:47 AM

Apparently You-Kays are emigrating to greener pastures.

You Kays out there -- what's the deal? Who's leaving, and have you considered it, and why?

BBC story


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 10:03 AM

The only reason I went was because staying would mean not being with Kendall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 10:04 AM

Cost of living? Taxes? Embarassing government?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 10:16 AM

I think Peter Kay is staying. Gordon Kay had some brain damage in an accident but he doesn't think he is French anymore...

Don't know any more Kays. Apart from the catalogue. I think their call centre has been re-located to Mumbai.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Bee
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 10:27 AM

Judging by the BBC house decorating, buying, selling shows I see, it's the horrific price of housing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The PA
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 11:41 AM

A head teachers murderer gets more consideration than his widow and children.
Regular stabbing and shootings involving teenagers.
People getting shot at as they drive along the M40
Cost of living
Tax
Pensions that you work all your life for suddenly disappear.
Probably having to work well after I am 65 just in order to survive.
The elderly who fought and survived two world wars being chucked out of nursing/residential homes when they are too much trouble to look after.

............ I'll just get my suitcase.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 12:05 PM

I would echo that last post by The PA. My wife and I have looked into selling up and buggering off to Spain, as like most people who are on the property ladder, the amount of equity in our house is f**cking ridiculous! BUT, if we do sell up it would leave our kids in the lurch as they would have no hope of ever affording their own house if we did a runner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 02:11 PM

The UK is currently a selfish, greedy, infantile, ageist society sliding at an accelerating rate into anarchy.

Oh yes, and there are far too many people fighting for inadequate services which are continually being cut and privatised.

We elect the Government, and pay our taxes, and the Government's only priority is facilitating the activities of Big Business.

In 10 to 20 years time those parts of the country which aren't underwater will be covered with millions of shoddy but prohibitively expensive houses and 'wind farms' (which will look like they're doing something to counter global warming but, in fact, will be for the sole purpose of making profits for wind farm manufacturers).


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 02:26 PM

Whit a bunch o whingin auld beggers.

Ye get whit ye luk fur in these past three weeks we went of with the wheelchair. Everyone we met was helpful and pleasent to us. All the young people i know around us are always willing to help hold open a door or haul the chair up some of the awkward slopes where we live. We never get to much sun but we also never get to much rain I wouldn't swap it for anywhere else, mostly what you show people they show you (respect).


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 03:35 PM

A lot come back - they go for a lot of reasons and the discover crime is everywhere not just the UK , taxes are higher, services are inadequate and so many go and form ex pat communities and do not intergrate or learn the language. Life is not a bunch of roses anywhere in this global market place-it just seems so where the sun shine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The PA
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 04:11 AM

I know this is not strictly to do with this thread, but after the shooting of an 11 year old in Liverpool last night, I asked my son as a 16 year old what he would do to try and stop all this terrible violence which seems to have taken over our streets - his answer - army training for anyone not at college, in full time education, working, or in an apprenticeship. He said its the only thing that will work. These teenagers are not worried by the police, have no time or respect for teachers or parents and see any form of 'punishment' as something for the friends to admire.

He's no goodie-goodie himself, and has got into his fair share of scrapes but luckily he and his mates knew when to stop. Perhaps its time for those in authority to start seeking a solution elsewhere - try the teenagers ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 04:20 AM

I spend my time between Spain and the UK.

Some things are much better in Spain.

Somethings are much worse.

I guess it its the same in most countries.

One of the things that is much worse is how the ex-pats - the non- integrated ones - moan about how they left the UK becausae of all the immigrants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: stallion
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 04:47 AM

mmmmmmmmm ok, the housing thing, private landlords exorbitant rents propped up by the rent support scheme (why doesn't the gov. poor people 80% of their mortgage repayments like they do to the private landlords?), fuel competition for low cost housing and drive up prices, crime etc. most of the recreation spaces are "brown field" developments. ( In York we have lost two playing fields and the only city centre swimming pool, as I type, is being reduced to rubble to make way for houses and hotel) When I was young, 13 or so, all the kids had a sheath knife hanging from their belt but would never dream of sticking it in anyone. Society in the UK has changed since I was a nipper but I am not sure it is for the worse and I still think it is as safe as many of the western "civilised" societies. So why are the K's leaving? Why did the three billy goats gruff tangle with the troll? The grass looked greener but hey it could have been a mirage or taste so naff it was inedible. Is the educated K's or the illiterate K's ? Tax exiles?> Ask the Captain, I hear Ireland is good to Tax Exiles so much easier to slip in and out of unnoticed (the old six month residency thing) The US has naff wages and naff holidays and boy do you have to work for your money, not like the french eh, now when I was working in France we all knocked off for lunch at 12 30, the brits had to be back at 1pm and when we stopped for 3 o'clock tea break the french guys were just packing up their tables and chairs and starting back to work, we all worked til 7pm and we all got paid the same!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 04:51 AM

the standard response is national service - we have probably one of the best armies in the world-the last thing you need in an army is someone who is undisciplined and doesn't want to be part of that team-the Army really don't want these kids.What they need is stable homes and a clear sense of what is right and wrong and the consequences of doing wrong -that you will not be eligible for (dependant on severity of their crime) a passport, state benefits, state healthcare or social services-that if you ostracise yourself from socety -society will do the same to you-and that is a lesson everyone should be taught from their first day in school. And families or parents who understand this but do not have the ability to handle their children should be given help-they should have full time mentors in school who are not their for education but purely for pastoral care. And finally, rant over-get rid of the crap on television served up by the self indulgent self destructive drug addled cult of celebrity that has invaded all our lives and which preaches self interest and a quick buck because I frankly am sick of it. We vilify the kids on the street doing drugs and yet have Kate Moss awarded huge contracts from companies because of her cult status -i hope her nose collapses!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 05:32 AM

...Right on Linda, I agree with every word!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,dáithí
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 05:39 AM

Apparently many of those included in the emigration figures are actually foreign nationals returning home, or travelling on after a year or more here.
Also students who spend more than a year abroad are also included.

So the picture is - as usual - more complicated than at first glance. In any event, with a population of around 60 million, is the figure for "transfers" (immigration seems to be around 500k per year) particularly high compared with other countries, I wonder?
D


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Mick Tems
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 05:44 AM

Is it any wonder that the Celtic nations are distancing themselves from England? The Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly elections were held this year, which resulted in victory for the Scottish Nationalists and a Sennedd composed of a Plaid Cymru/Labour coalition. In Wales, Labour do not rule any more, thanks to decent, sensible, progressive Plaid Cymru policies. Britain is waking up and shaking off the legacy of the liar and murderer, Big Brother Blair - or, to quote the left-wing songwriter Robb Johnson: "I Still do hate the Tories. Well, to be honest, I didn't think New Labour would be Jerusalem overnight, but I didn't expect it to be quite so awful... just more Thatcherism, only without the handbag."


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The PA
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:17 AM

Yep I agree with you Linda, I forgot to say that my son said that they should not let them join the services, the last thing a thug needs is to be allowed to use a gun to take pot shots at someone in another country.
They should just have the training and not be let out until they are 21.
Have to say I agree with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 09:08 AM

People have always emigrated from the UK - that's why places like the USA and Australia are English-speaking.   People leave for all kinds of reasons, basically baecause they think they might have a better life somewhere else, which is the same reason other people come to live here, sometimes from the same countries the emigrants are bound for (eg Spain).

This is a "silly season" story, basically.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 09:12 AM

National service is no longer an option. In these times of high tech soldiering, the army can't be expected to supply a role for uneducated, undisciplined and indolent teenagers, just to get them out from under our feet.

It should be remembered too that these kids are the minority of young people who, while they are a bloody nuisance socially, are also to some extent victims of a laisser faire culture developed during the 1960s by a bunch of trendy twerps with sociology degrees and delusions of infallibility.

Those we are now finding so difficult to deal with, are the grandchildren of the Dr. Spock generation, who were brought up in the belief that it would blight their little psyches if anyone said NO to them.

In the main, undisciplined parents raise undisciplined kids, and it doesn't get better over three generations, it gets worse.

The vast majority of youngsters are actively engaged in getting themselves the best education they can, as well as supporting local organisations, and charities.

For the minority, it is probably too late to effect much improvement in their lives, or their impact on the neighbours.

Most of the work of rearing a disciplined adult is done before the age of two. One thing which is guaranteed to bring smoke from my ears, is the adult,watching a toddler behaving badly, who says "Awww! Isn't that cute?"

NO IT ISN'T! And if we let the child think it is, we are setting him up for trouble later on.

We don't approve of smacking any more (I don't mean beating, just a slap on bottom or hand), and we are the only animal on this planet that doesn't. Why? Well I haven't a clue.

What I do know is this. With the use of a very occasional slap, my two kids knew all the house rules by the time they were two years old, and neither needed a slap beyond that age. Of course they broke rules, and misbehaved, but they knew that no meant NO,,and loss of privileges would follow.

Do I feel guilty about the few times I smacked them? Emphatically not! I never had to worry about their behaviour, and they both have very good careers, and I feel that I helped to put them on that path.

Next time you see a bunch of hoodies looking menacing on a street corner, stop and think, that the person responsible may be sitting at home watching telly, and not caring enough to have tried.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 09:56 AM

If you're looking for a previous period to blame for things going wrong on the streets, a better candidate than 60s "progressivism", I suggest would be the Thatcherite ethos of laissez faire and evil take the hindmost which devastated whole communities and threw millions of people out of work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 10:00 AM

Because it's tiny and people get the wanderlust when they've seen the breadth of the colonies? Until they find out how it's going to be, to lose healthcare.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The Walrus
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 10:42 AM

-CAUTION- THREAD DRIFT

Re: Conscription.

The idea of military National Service is inviting, but, as has been stated in the past, the Forces DON'T WANT CONSCRIPTS, add to this, as has been mentioned, who would want to see some of the less desirable elements able to use firearms properly.

May I suggest a compromise might be a paramilitary type 'Civil Defence' force, this could have a 'regular' element as well as a 'conscript' force (as did the Armed forces in the 1950s), thus giving a degree of stability and structure, the training could be used to ensure that, say, everyone within an age bracket was trained in First Aid (or whatever), travel, postings, R&R 'in theatre' could be used to help regulate behavior.

The force thus formed could be employed in disaster relief (perhaps units seconded to International organisations* as a 'rapid reaction force) or in humanitarian type work (water systems in the third world etc).

We now return you to your normal service

* UN, ICRC etc


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: skipy
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

Use them for minefield clearance, linked arm in arm!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The PA
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 11:56 AM

The Walrus - I think this was the sort of thing my son (and his mates) had in mind. I agree they are certainly not the kind of yobs who would be at all suitable for our Services. Unless we follow Skipy's idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The PA
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 12:01 PM

Just on the news, another shooting in Letchworth this lunchtime - what in gods name is going on in this country???


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 12:15 PM

Still a long way to go before there are as many as in the USA, where anyone can wave a gun around in order to 'defend themselves'.

The media would like everyone to believe there's a gun-totin' psycho-hoodie waiting round every corner, ready to blow away the first person he sees. It sells papers, but it's bollocks. There are a small number of people of a particular kind, who are settling scores, marking territories and scaring the shit out of those they perceive as their 'enemies' - e.g. the M40 shooting, which turned out to be some sort of Hells-Angel-Score-Settling, and the drug/gang-related 'executions' which we hear about in, e.g., Manchester.

The perception that the UK is full of homicidal gun-owners is false, and is simply a media-tool for selling copy. The vast majority of the UK population will never see a gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 01:54 PM

Well I'm not leaving, I still quite like it here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 02:38 PM

I WOULD GO IF I HAD T








I would go if i had the chance but been ill noone will have me except this country.




Scooby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 03:14 PM

I've been ill too Scooby, and I can think of far worse places to be ill in. QMC at Nottingham were quick and thorough in diagnosing my illness and carrying out my op. Can't fault 'em.

Oh, and many of the staff were non-British too, God bless 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 05:42 PM

"The perception that the UK is full of homicidal gun-owners is false,...: Backwoodsman

Believe it or not, Backwoodsman, that perception of the US is false also.

It strikes me that jingoistic USers will note that, according to the article, America is not being beset by pounding-on-the-door wannabe UK immigrants. *g*


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: skipy
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:07 PM

The perception that the UK is full of homicidal gun-owners is false,...: Backwoodsman

Correct, it appears from an article today, that they RENT them for a day or a week! Find out who the "gunlords" are & TAKE THEM OUT!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:19 PM

it isn't just illness that draws people back to his country -you may qualify for healthcare in the EC with an E111 but you do not qualify for social help for the elderly ie home or residential care in many countries if you become infirm. Social care is free in Scotland and meanstested in the remainder of the uk, but free for those on basic benefits pension credit etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:34 PM

I only wish we could secede from England and join Scoland here in Harlow...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The PA
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 03:18 AM

News this morning, the M5 is closed at J11 Gloucester - someone taking potshots at a police car - now tell me its not getting worse?
Three in as many days? It maybe 'copy-cat' stuff, but its still people having guns and going out in broad daylight and using them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 04:42 AM

My main reason (though I agree with a lot of the reasons others have given) would be the increasingly controlling "Nannie state" where no one can think for themselves, no one expects to take responsibility for their actions and you can't turn round without some3one saying it's dangerous and passing a rule to stop you from doing it.

As someone who moved here by choice in the first place 30 years ago, I've seen the place change for the worse at a rapidly increasing rate. The England I came for has all but disappeared

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 04:46 AM

When National Service is brought back, or whatever fancy name they decide to call it, at least the little antisocial scroats will stand some chance of being knocked into shape!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 05:04 AM

I was castigated on this Site last year by lots of regulars from England for daring to tell them that their streets were unsafe, that thuggery was the norm with their teenage yobs, now every paper I read is crying out for`law and order`.

The fault lies with lack of parental control, the parent or parents of the hood on the street spend most of their evenings at the local pub.

I pointed out that on the European mainland this form of yob rule was unheard off, the only exception being those resorts were the English youth use for replays of their behavior at home.

It is getting more and more out of hand, winning the streets back for the people is going to take a long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 05:11 AM

Friends of ours sold up a lovely house in Somerset about 5 years ago, and moved to Normandy in France, reason given was "Can't stand any more of that effing Tony Blair!"
Giok.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:39 AM

ard has it spot on.

At nightime every park in the country has it's own contingent of yobs getting arseholed and threatening ordinary people. They cause problems on their way to and from their drinking grounds ansd the police either don't give a shit or certainly can't give them a cuff around the ear so they are pretty ineffective - and the yobs are only too aware of it.

No discipline. Poor parenting. Claim culture. Freely available cheap booze. Useless coppers and politicians who don't understand what is actually happening.

In my opinion we're fucked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:20 AM

Either bring back a system like the old Remand Homes, and/or make the parents of children under the age of criminal responsibility legally responsible for the actions of said child.
e.g. If a ten year old commits a felony, charge one of both of his parents with the crime as if they'd done it, which in way they have!
We have no sanctions we can apply to young children, corporal punishment is illegal, the law cannot touch them, and they know it, so they take advantage.
I have threatened to call the police to a couple of young thugs locally, and got the, 'They can't touch us' reply, time they were stopped from being able to maraud and damage with impunity.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:21 AM

But in fact, the areas where you don't feel safe on the streets are few and mainly around the big towns. It's just that they are the ones you hear about. Once again, you never hear about the streets, villages, towns where nothing happens because it's not news.

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:22 AM

"At nightime every park in the country has it's own contingent of yobs getting arseholed and threatening ordinary people."

Wrong - at least, where I live it's wrong. 'Every' is a big word, and pretty much unverifiable. I'd agree with 'some parks' though.

"No discipline. Poor parenting. Claim culture. Freely available cheap booze"

Correct.

"Useless coppers"

Wrong again. It's "demoralised and emasculated coppers whose hands are tied by the Politically-Correct-Dickheads who are dictating how they can do their jobs, a judiciary who live on the Planet Zog, and law-makers who haven't a clue". The coppers know what to do, they just daren't do it, and anyway they're too busy filling in stupid forms in order to satisfy the Politically-Correct-Dickheads, Planet-Zoggers and clueless law-makers.

IMHO :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: The Walrus
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 12:50 PM

Perhaps a few suggestions:
1) Bring back Borstals
2) If 'kids' commit "Adult" crimes (such as firearms offences) let them face "Adult" courts and "Adult" sentences.
3) Add 'other' offences committed during the commission of a crime into the mix at sentencing - example: If a shooter has no suitable licence, there's an automatic extra "illegal possession" charge (that's worth up to 5 years).
4) Drop the 'sentences served concurrently' crap - make it CONSECUTIVE, let the ba*ds know that they stand the chance of going away for a VERY long time.
5) "Bolt On" additional sentences for use of weapons - as a suggestion:
Using anything "a reasonable person" could take for a firearm (Touys, replicas, blank firers, de-activated weapons etc.) -2 Years
Assault with above (not discharged) - 3 years
Discharging same - 4 years
Assault with firearm (weapon discharged) - 6 years
Wounding with firearm - 8 years
Homocide (deliberate or not) 15 years (no reduction)
The above to be 'add on's, to be served consecutively with any sentence for the crime for which the defendent is convicted (so a murderer would get Life + 20 years (15 for the homocide + 5 for illegal posession) + the appropriate 'bolt on' for anyone else killed or injured.
Maybe it won't be seen as a deterrent, but it will keep the scum out of society*
6) Bring back public Corporal Punishment - A birching in public would have more effect than any ASBO
7) Bring back 'Hard Labour' (preferably, heavy, hard and soul destroyingly boring) and 'Rigorous Imprisonment'
Unfortunately these last two would be condemned as 'cruel and unusual' and probably be condemned under 'Human Rights' legislation.


* Can we start a prison colony on Rockall?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,watney's
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 06:58 PM

Possibly due to the number of immigrants ?
English is becoming the second language in many of our schools.
The government has to deal with this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 07:21 AM

Red Herring there Watney's (for god's sake, why would anyone which half an ounce of self respect choose to name themselves after the worst 'beer' ever produced?). Almost the entire population of North America is made up of 'immigrants', give a generation or two, but they aren't all leaving.

And a large proportion of emigrants from the UK appear to be immigrants who decided to go home, or somewhere else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 01:02 PM

6) Bring back public Corporal Punishment

Actually the reason we got rid of it (and the same reason they got rid of it in schools) was because it didn't work.

Take any school punishment book - the same names appeared time and time again. Also it allows some people sexual gratification, beating people. Just another form of child sex abuse.

Wasn't there an Eton Headmaster in there somewhere?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 01:07 PM

My guess would be that people are leaving the UK in order to get far away from Olive Whatnoll and 'er 'usband, Eddie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 01:09 PM

Let's hope they catch the scum who shot poor 11 year old Rhys Jones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 04:24 PM

We considered leaving and a lot of that was due to the 'nannie state' as mentionned by MBSLynne above. That and the culture of favouring cheap young teachers over experienced ones. I don't find an obvious increase in crime round here although I do notice the lack of respect kids show in general in schools. Tothe best of my knowledge the only schools that have English as a second language are in Wales and having workied in areas where the local population was mainly Asian all lessons are conducted in English.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Gurney
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 05:20 PM

I'm behind the times, I emigrated to NZ more than 30 years ago, so I don't know the state of the nation there 'back home'. However, the troubles that you are experiencing are echoed to some extent in the two most popular destinations for emigrants.

My thinking, from memories of my youth and experiences of my life, is that unless you have an inclination to be a salesperson, media personality, or have the brains to be some kind of whizz-kid, you will never be financially secure in your whole life, supposing that you are a young adult now.

My contemporaries and I were raised in the knowledge that work, over a lifetime, would ensure a life of stability, and some comfort. People left school and found a trade or job within their competence, took their place in society, and tried to live 'happily ever after.'

The inequity that I read about (and see around me here) seems designed to bring despair to the average punter, who can get no work with stability for the future. With 10% of the population owning 80% of the wealth, how can an ordinary bloke make his way?

I can find no argument with other views expressed above, and I think it all adds together to create dspair in young people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 06:53 AM

Goods points Gurney. Unfortunately, since the reign of that f**king Grantham tart, the ethic of rewarding hard work and valuing long experience seems to have bitten the dust. What's important nowadays seems to be Youth, the ability to talk the bollocks of ignorance and sound like an expert, and the distance a person's tongue can be inserted into the rectum of their workplace superiors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 07:36 AM

Still blaming Maggie I see. how convenient it is to have someone to blame for ones own cock ups.
Let's see how long has she been gone now? How long has the 'Socialist' [sic] government been in power now?
Just because one is disappointed in the failings of ones own political party doesn't mean you shouldn't blame someone who has nothing to do with their shortcomings is it?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 09:08 AM

One of the problems is that we have increased access to information!
The papers (who need headlines to sell them) print drivvel and the great unthinking lap it up. If you are told something often enough you tend to believe it!
Things are getting better not worse!
10 years ago there were many areas of Manchester, Salford, Oldham and Rochdale that were "no go" areas, now there is only one part of Manchester (M40) that I do not go to (on my own) and that is because of damage to the veichle not me!
People move house more often now, one of the consequences of which is that we no longer have the same community spirit!
If we see a child do something wrong we do not correct it, but complain to our circle of friends. We are also more "litigious" and so we get the urban myth of the first aider sued by the person they are attempting to save!
We should all just judge a bit less and do a bit more!
This is not a new problem "forgive me the youth with their long hair, for I do not understand them" was one quote from Socratiese!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 01:42 PM

Giok, the values I spoke of - reward for hard work, loyalty and selflessness, were destroyed during The Bitches Reign Of Terror Over The Ordinary Man. She and her lackeys encouraged, nay inspired, the selfish, 'Me-First And Fuck You' attitudes we see so much of today.

And yes, New Labour ** spit** has completely failed to address that problem - mainly, I guess, because 'New Labour' is Conservatism hiding behind a New Name.

I lived through it, as did you. You know I'm right. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 02:22 PM

"'New Labour' is Conservatism hiding behind a New Name."

Exactly. Just like the Democrats are Conservatism pretending to be something else. They are the servants of the corporate-military-industrial complex hiding behind another name and pretending not to be basically almost identical to their opponents, the Republicans. They both serve the same money-driven agenda. They both run the same aggressive foreign policy and back the same wars.

Big Money has bought out all the major political parties long ago. Big Money prefers a $ySStem where 90% of the wealth is in the hands of 5% of the populace, and where workers and ordinary people are powerless wage slaves in dead end jobs with no security.

It's the New Feudalism, and it's very, very proud of its accomplishments around the world. I'm sure that more is yet to come. Maggie Thatcher wasn't the cause of it...she was more like a symptom...or a facilitator. She helped move the process along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 02:52 PM

Let's see how long has she been gone now?

Seventeen years isn't it? We're just now getting teenagers who had parents whose whole childhood was spent in the ruins of the economic and social devastation over which Thatcher presided.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cooquie
Date: 26 Aug 07 - 03:55 PM

Precisely, McG.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 08:28 AM

Couldn't have put it better, McGrath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 09:10 AM

It beggars belief that some people think so poorly of their contemporaries that they are will to ascribe their inability to cope with life outside of government diktat, and are willing to blame all the ills of society on one person.
No matter what you or I think of Margaret Thatcher you cannot logically blame her for all the ills of a generation.
Please be logical rather than doctrinaire, it is typical of the attitude in this country, where some people are still fighting and re-fighting the last war. Why look forward when you can look backwards, and why take the blame, when you can blame someone else.
Dog-in-the-manger is the name for that sort of attitude.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 09:27 AM

And 'Amnesiac' is the name for someone who forgets so easily Giok.
Much of what we find in the attitudes of people today has its roots in the **doctrinaire** politics of Thatcher and her gutless arse-licker pals. She created the 'Fuck You' generation, and they have passed it on down the line.

I can neither forgive nor forget. She crippled our industry, drove three million into unemployment, while selling off our nationalised industries and council housing stock to the benefit of her rich buddies.

Lest we forget. My last words on this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 09:34 AM

The Common Market has done more to cripple our industries than she ever did. Nationalised industries were mostly inefficient and all over manned, they would have gone eventually whoever was in power.
Blaming the messenger has always been a popular sport.
G


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: alanabit
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

To some extent that depends upon what you call an "industry" Giok. If we are talking about production industries, whose products have to compete with those on a global scale, I can't dispute what you have written. On the other hand, Transport and electricity, for instance, should primarily exist as utilities, to serve an internal market. Most continental transport systems in Western Europe are subsidised and non profit making. They are also reasonably priced at the consumer end, integrated with other services and more reliable than those of the UK. Austria and Switzerland, two of the most daunting landscapes in which to operate trains efficiently, have superb rail systems. I know of no other West European country, which has the shambles of the UK.
Mudcatters, who know me, are aware that I live in Cologne and have done so for around half of my life now. I was on a visit to the UK with a class of teenagers from a grammar school two weeks ago. I had several mixed feelings. Inevitably one compares the land one left, to the one it is now.
A lot of things did impress me. The streets of Hastings, London and Canterbury were clean. There were well maintained, free public toilets everywhere. You no longer have to smoke when you enter a pub or a cafe. Even the old town of Hastings had an abundance of live music. Most people on the streets, in the cafes and pubs were cheerful and helpful. It is one expensive country though, isn't it? I don't know how folk can live on those rates of pay. It is also remarkable that within a short walk of the modern shopping centres, the old streets are full of boarded up shops. That is true in just about any town. That certainly was not the case when I lived there. It is easy to get emotive about a lot of stuff. From where I was looking, I would say there has been some change for the better and some for the worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 01:30 PM

OK Giok, we don't agree, no problemo. My last words, as I don't want to get entrenched in an argument which I suspect neither of us will admit to losing:-
Whether our industries would have survived or not is a moot point - she made sure they never had a chance. And she delighted in being Robin Hood In Reverse - stealing from the 'poor' (by which I mean the Comparatively-Less-Well-Off) to give to the rich. She held the poor in total disdain - a true-blue bully-girl who loved kicking anyone who she perceived as weak and defenceless. She even married a millionaire - no chance of her tying the knot with a Govan welder.
I'm surprised at your defence of Thatcher - she had little or no regard for your country or the welfare of your countrymen. The only people who did well were the go-getters and fat-cats, it was largely due to her influence that it became fashionable to get rich by moving paper balances around instead of by making real wealth - goods for trade.
And that's where we still are today - millions in 'non-jobs', waiting-on in restaurants, taking degrees in 'leisure and tourism', following college courses in 'health and beauty' because there are no real jobs and New-Labour-Conservatives don't want the true number of unemployed to become common knowledge.
She wasn't the messenger Giok, she was the architect.
Ah well.....
:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Mrs Olive Whatnoll
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 02:25 PM

It's a fecking lie that people are leavin' the UK on account of me and me 'usband Eddie! Absolute rubbish! We are among the best that our class offers, salt of the earth, the kind of 'ard workin' people wot made this country wot it is becoz we ain't afraid to get our lit'le 'ands dirt'y! Yes, we made Great Britain wot it is...God's bleedin' kingdom on Earth!!!

If I 'ad the rotter that spread them lies about us 'ere, I would blacken both 'is eyes and set the dogs on 'im!

We 'ave purchased 2 of them vicious Rottweilers since the last "incident" with the nyebours. I am glad to say that we 'ave 'ad no more such incidents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 02:38 PM

I'm defending her because she is being unfairly blamed for EVERYTHING, I am not defending her politics per se, I just hate to see someone demonised to that extent, when it is impossible to hold her responsible for all the ills of the UK. The unions would have had accept some restrictions of their power at some point or another, but had Arthur Scargill not chosen to start a fight he could never have won, she would not have succeeded to the extent she did in emasculating the unions.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 27 Aug 07 - 06:45 PM

I left the UK to take up a job in China. I settled here and over more and more visits back to the UK for business and to see family I realised that I could not live there anymore.

Crime is low here and naturaly the money goes further. In general I began to find the UK a bit of a depressing place. Overtaxed, expensive and with a nanny state attitude. Thats not to say you can do what you like here in the workers paradise.

I was more worried for Mrs SC's safety when I was in the UK as she has a bit of a rosey eyed view of the country. For myself a visit to Liverpool in May for a reunion confirmed that the big cities in the UK are scary.

I have never had to walk down a street at night here and fear being mugged.

On the move to Aus' hopefully in a couple of months and I have no intention to live in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 12:53 AM

I've been working with a Scot who is in favor (ahem, excuse me, 'FAVOUR') of Independence. He says you know how the South treats the North the second you cross the border and the quality of the road changes "They're headed for round three of the land clearances" he says.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 12:56 AM

Neddy Seagoon: "Don't worry, dear listeners, Old England isn't finished yet..." -pause-

"It's finished," -tone sounds- "NOW!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 04:04 AM

If it is such a bad place....... why do we see stories of hoards of forigners wanting to come here and take all our jobs?

Is it just me or do I note that most of the most outspoken comments come from "guests"??
If you are a guest you should conform to the common standards!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 04:56 AM

Because not many other countries allow them such unfettered access I guess. There is also the fact that nobody can die of starvation in the UK, unlike some of the countries without a welfare system which they may come from.
I can't remember the exact figures, but it was something like only the UK and one other country allowed free movement of labour from the new EEC accession countries when they joined last January, [or was it the one before?] so that is the main reason that we have received such a large influx from Poland et al.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 05:15 AM

"Crime is low here and naturaly the money goes further. In general I began to find the UK a bit of a depressing place. Overtaxed, expensive and with a nanny state attitude. Thats not to say you can do what you like here in the workers paradise.

Er, bit of an understatement that last bit. +Comparing living in Britain to China?

Tried looking up 'Tiananmen Square' from your Chinese version of Google? Want to carry a picture of the HH Dalai Lama? Want to say what you think? No way!

I bet you're glad you're off to Australia - at least you'll be able to call the Chinese Government a bunch of morally and politically corrupt dictators who torture their own people and virtually enslave many others whilst maintaining an illegal occupation of a sovereign nation, and oppressing it's people by relocation of Han Chinese and systematic persecution of it's religious and political leaders including the kidnap and incarceration of it's second most important leader The Panchen Lama.

But sorry, you can't can you?

We're all guilty of supporting China to a greater and lesser degree, and I too find Britain depressing sometimes, but thank the maker it isn't like China (yet - we'll all be speaking Mandarin in fifty years time).


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 05:51 AM

. . . and furthermore I agree with Backwoodsman about Thatcher - spot on.

"The unions would have had accept some restrictions of their power at some point or another, but had Arthur Scargill not chosen to start a fight he could never have won, she would not have succeeded to the extent she did in emasculating the unions."

I'm not so sure Giok. Thatcher had the unions in her sights from day one. She won her majority off the back of the binmen's strike and from the outset started legislating against the unions. Remember this:

"We had to fight the enemy without in the Falklands. We always have to be aware of the enemy within, which is much more difficult to fight and more dangerous to liberty."

Of course, what no-one knew at the time was Thatcher fully intended to destroy the unions powerbase by destroying the industries they represented. Her decimation of our various heavy industries and the manufacturing base has effects that are still felt today - the fact the so-called Socialist goverment still adheres to monetarist dogma is testament to the effect this woman has had on British politics.

The continuing nationalisation of state-owned industries and assets in the 80s and 90s created a country where the people feel disenfranchised from the infrastructure that supports them - how many of our utilities companies are owned by British firms (when I go walking in the hills near my home, the land I walk on that was once owned by me as part of the collective is now owned by a French company) ?

I could bang on for hours about how the policies of Thatcher and her cohorts have undermined the neation's self belief and eroded the core fabric of our society - but the evidence is all around us so there's no point. She deserves her demonisation for the simple reason she acted without compassion and regard for the long-term consequences of her actions (a political trait not confined to her, granted) in matters that fundamentally changed the very nature of how we interact with society and each other as individuals - and our feral youth is just another consequence of disregarding the fact people need a strong, cohesive society in order to live together in tolerance and peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: mouldy
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 06:29 AM

When my husband was still alive, he spent most of his time working overseas, largely in the former USSR, but also at one time in China. Each time he returned, he complained more and more about the deterioration he perceived of the country in general, the cost of living, and the nanny state. He said that when/if he retired, there would be no way he would live here permanently. He didn't come up with an alternative (but we thought we still had plenty of time left to work on that one)!

In 4 weeks time, our son emigrates to NZ, with no job to go to, but with permanent residency granted to him and his fiancee. He is currently trying to get a job, but has said he will clean toilets if he has to. One of his main reasons for going is the lack of opportunity they have to buy a home here. He has been in work since he left university 6 years ago, and has been living with his fiancee for 2 years in a modern rented flat. Even combining their incomes, they can barely afford to buy, except in the more run-down areas of Cardiff (where they live). He works for the Environment Agency, and wages are not that high, with laughable annual raises at his level, compared with the private sector.
If they settle, I may also go there, and my other kids are also showing interest. My older daughter has been told that, as a pharmacist, once she has taken the necessary registration exam, she could be out there in 3 months. She hasn't made a decision yet, but she keeps coming round to it from time to time in her conversation.

Andrea


Andrea


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 06:54 AM

What destroyed our fishing industry, what destroyed our steel industry, what enforced the rules on water treatment to the extent that it was cheaper to sell the water companies to private enterprise than to modernise the system to meet EEC regulations? What made us sever our favourable trade agreements with NZ and other old trading partners because they were outside the EEC, thus pushing up the price of food?
Is it because of Maggie that our water tastes like swimming bath effluent, or our lamb is more expensive? Of course it wasn't, and it's all very well to use her to demonise her, it's a convenient peg, and saves people having to think intelligently about why this country is in the state it is.
How many houses has banning fox hunting built, and how many old age pensioners are unafraid to walk the street since the introduction of ASBO's? This government is just as bad as any of it's predecessors in modern times.
Who abolished corporation tax, who made it possible for entrepreneurs to buy up companies on borrowed cash, asset strip them, and pay only 10% tax or less for the privilege?
As I said, I am no Maggie Thatcher supporter, but I am in favour of equality and blame sharing, not scapegoating, and blaming people for things that happened long after they had gone. It's like blaming the measles you had as a child for the bronchitis you have as a smoking adult!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 07:18 AM

"and saves people having to think intelligently about why this country is in the state it is"

If it makes me a thickie because I blame Thatcher et al for planting the seeds of a fair amount of discontent and social problems then so be it, but that still doesn't alter the fact we are now reaping the benefits of the aggressive monetarist policies of the 70s, 80s and 90s, and the trickle down effect is finally trickling upward and the middle classes are feeling the bite.

The fact the current goverment has taken this socially divisive dogma and carried it on to the extent they have is deeply depressing - I am a small business owner and the Labour party have made my very existence precarious, do me no favours with the massive amount of tax I pay but they are only continuing where Thatcher led when she introduced monetarianism as a political ideology.

It would be a buffoon who soley blamed Thatch for the ills plaguing modern society, but at least acknowledge the rough waters we are now sailing were due to a sea change she instigated thirty years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 07:38 AM

Thank you Stigweard, you echo my beliefs. Glad I'm not alone! :-) :-)
Giok - we can't agree but that's OK, I respect your views and your right to hold them.
Cheers M'Dears.
S:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 07:54 AM

Well we're all equally depressed about the state of the UK that's for sure, just we don't all attribute it to a single cause ;)
Who would have thought that under a Socialist [sic] government the city would be handing out bonus payments in excess of a million pounds to to traders in futures etc. That the top rate of tax remains the same no matter how mush over the baseline you earn, and that indirect taxation which soaks rich and poor alike would still be the norm. Now that is something I blame Thatcher's government for, the myth that indirect taxation was the way to win votes, and that more than ANYTHING else is the cause of social inequality today. Before you all shout 'He's agreeing with us' remember this. It wasn't her who dreamed the idea of indirect taxation up, it's just that she was at the helm at the time, but you can't blame the Titanic for the iceberg.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 09:17 AM

I don't attribute all of todays ills to Maggie and The Forty Thieves directly Giok. If you read me again, I'm saying that she and her foul cronies set the scene, and encouraged (praised even), the worst attributes of human nature - unbridled greed and total disregard for the good of the people as a whole.

And the current Tory-In-Labour's-Clothing crowd have done very little to right that scenario as far as I can see.

That's me done. Still friends!
S:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 09:56 AM

Although you can't blame Titanic for the iceberg, it would have been nice to have someone at the helm who wasn't intent on steering towards the scene of the accident . . .

The tax situation is ludicrous though I agree. It beggars belief what has happened in this country in the past decade. In fact, sod it - I'm going to go out and smash some phone boxes in frustration with the hoodies . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 10:04 AM

"unbridled greed and total disregard for the good of the people as a whole."

Now that sums up the attitude prevalent in most 1970's Trade Unions - The same trade unions who attempted to hold the country to ransome and dictate to the duly elected parliament of the day. Those who disagree can regale us all about how idyllic things were in the decade before Margaret Thatcher won the 1979 General Election.

If you are thick enough to believe that one person invented and promoted and was responsible for "unbridled greed" in our fellow human beings then more fool you. Likewise the policies were continued and adopted by some of her most severe detractors because they work, they were necessary, they were definitely unpopular, but then that is what a real "leader" is supposed to do - provide leadership if even if the pill is bitter to swallow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 01:18 PM

I asked before, and I'll ask again ....... WHO is leaving?
If some people are coming here (because they can) it says two things
1 Some people want to come and can't!
2 Those who can, and do, do so for a reason.

I wonder what that is? Maybe it is better "here" than "there"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 02:43 PM

Who is leaving
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 04:42 AM

"If you are thick enough to believe that one person invented and promoted and was responsible for "unbridled greed" in our fellow human beings then more fool you"

Eh? Who said it was one person Teribus? No where do I see a suggestion Thatcher is responsible for all the greed in our fellow human beings.

"Likewise the policies were continued and adopted by some of her most severe detractors because they work"

Well, it depends who you are doesn't it? it may have worked for you Mr.T but there are plenty of people who it didn't work for then and it still doesn't work for now. The continuation of the monetarist policies instigated by Thatcher is not an indication of how successful they are, but how weak and idealogically corrupt the watered-down socialist wonks of New Labour were and are - in thrall to the capitialist con and effectively abandoning their original supporters who voted them in on a platform of social equality and justice.

"but then that is what a real "leader" is supposed to do - provide leadership if even if the pill is bitter to swallow"

If you're thick enough to believe that, then more fool you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 09:53 AM

Wise words Stig.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 03:28 PM

Now that sums up the attitude prevalent in most 1970's Trade Unions - The same trade unions who attempted to hold the country to ransome and dictate to the duly elected parliament of the day.

Whereas that could never happen nowadays could it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 03:35 PM

New labour licked the arse of big business and sold them peerages to raise the cash to get them out of the thrall of the trade unions, who already cost one labour government an election. Their being so closely identified with people like Arthur Scargill was costing them votes.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 09:06 PM

According to your own figures "Giork" there are more people comming than going ...... so for the third time WHO is leaving? And does it matter?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 09:49 PM

It was my exquisite pleasure to dine and drink with a handfull of BRIT Ex-Pats this summer, in places obviously outside the UK.

Bottom line for ALL of them.....same reason we colonists broke from our mother tongue's teat........TAXES!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 10:08 PM

I offer these thoughts about Linda Kelly's first posting here:

...the consequences of doing wrong -that you will not be eligible for (dependant on severity of their crime) a passport, state benefits, state healthcare or social services-that if you ostracise yourself from socety -society will do the same to you-and that is a lesson everyone should be taught from their first day in school.

Quite so, and I agree. But when you outlaw people -- which is effectively what is being proposed -- they will simply take what they want because nothing more can or will be done to them.

Ultimately, the concepts of right and wrong have to be instilled in the home and reinforced in the schools -- and right done not through fear of punishment, but simply because its right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 09:30 AM

The question was 'Who's leaving', not how many matey.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 10:28 AM

"Bottom line for ALL of them.....same reason we colonists broke from our mother tongue's teat........TAXES!!!"

Well let's hope when they're all dribbling down their chins and pissing in their pants they are going to their local hospital in their new homeland and not come back here expecting free health care after dodging their tax burden . . .

. . . which whilst is too high is still something we have tro pay for our services. Sodding off abroad is OK if you're rich but for those of us who don't have a choice it's a pretty rotten thing to do. The fact Labour has made tax-dodging for the rich and big business one of their primary policies to attract these people and companies to the UK is one of the more cynical manoeuvers for a party that continues to call itself Socialist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 06:54 PM

The emphasis is on the word "Leaving"

There are more coming than going! Perhaps there is a reason?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 07:26 PM

Stigweard, Folkiedave, Backwoodsman, tell us all how great it was back in the 1970's - the three day week, the "social" contract, the power cuts, the backlog of people waiting to be buried, hospital porters deciding whether or not your complaint warranted admittance to hospital, the UK having to go cap in hand to the IMF - If you don't remember it I certainly do.

Tell us how much per day it cost the British Tax payer to keep those "Nationalised Industries" (White Elephants) running. But of course that was what you on the left call "Government Money" wasn't it. Tell us how much UK produced coal and steel cost per tonne, then explain how using it could keep British industry competitive. Sure initially there was high unemployment but that disappeared long ago, UK led Europe in terms of foreign investment, low inflation and low unemployment rates. Oh, and, oddly enough, if the country had gone for Poll Tax you'd have a far fairer local tax system in place now than the present Council Tax, its a pity that the political parties in the UK at the moment haven't the guts to admit it.

No the days of Trade Unions dictating to the elected Government of the UK are over, thank goodness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 08:10 PM

I have completely resolved Great Britain's chronic social problems vicariously in the game "Rome - Barbarian Invasion" by moving north from the Roman holdings in Londinium, conquering the rest of the wretched island including all of Scotland as well as neighbouring Ireland, and putting ruthlessly to fire and sword any of the local people who objected to the gift of enlightened Roman rule.

If only it was that easy now... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 03:11 AM

" conquering the rest of the wretched island including all of Scotland as well as neighbouring Ireland"

Typical imperialst Yank answer to everything - invade and occupy ; )

It all started going down hill when the Romans arrived. First they put all our Druids to the sword, raped the daughters of our chieftans and finally pissed off and let the Saxon hordes in. Country has never been the same since.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 03:14 AM

"Oh, and, oddly enough, if the country had gone for Poll Tax you'd have a far fairer local tax system in place now than the present Council Tax,"

That would have been odd.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 04:54 AM

Tell us how much per day it cost the British Tax payer to keep those "Nationalised Industries" (White Elephants) running.

What an interesting view of society you have Teribus.

You seem to imagine we no longer subsidise industry.

We do of course - if only through tax relief to private equity firms and things like the export credit guarantee department, massive subsidies to farming etc etc. We subsidise the arms industries so that when those we have supplied with arms default, the arms manufacturers don't suffer.

We massively subsidise private industry through PPP partnerships.

Here in South Yorkshire we used to have a heavily subsidised public transport system and the lowest fares in the UK. Now after the wonderful years of Thatcherism and her cronies like Blair we still have a heavily subsidised transport system and we have some of the highest fares in Britain. Thanks private enterprise. We cannot buy a ticket that covers all buses and all trains and all trams. I can do this in Spain, France, Hungary and a load of other countries and American states and it works fine. Why not Sheffield? 'Cos those wonderful private firms don't allow it.

We destroy our youth clubs and social activities for people and then wonder why we have chaos on the streets.

We destroyed our apprenticeship system and then wonder why we have Polish plumbers.

As far as coal is concerned we produced the cheapest deep-mined coal in the world and the industry was mega-efficient. We now import gas from Russia, tell us Teribus what will you do if they decide to cut it off like they did to the Ukraine? Open up the coal mines again? Invade Russia?

The Poll Tax brought Thatcher down because it was an inefficient way of collecting local taxes, politician after politician (including those on her own side) told Thatcher it would be and they were proved right. I don't know if you ever noticed but loads of people didn't pay it. No local taxes are fair but a property tax is the one tax the rich can never avoid. The thing that is wrong with it is that it has a ceiling.

The days of trade unions dictating to government are over - shame they have been replaced by accountants and financiers who seem to spend most of their life avoiding tax.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 04:58 AM

It would certainly prevent anomalies like mine where 2 people on limited incomes [pension/benefits] pay the same amount of council tax as the people down the road a wee bit who have 3 wage earners in their house.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 05:41 AM

There will always be anomalies like that John. But you make the assumption that people paid the poll tax. Large numbers of people avoided it.

Mine poll tax was mega complicated for reasons I will not bore you with now - I paid no poll tax (legally) for over a year. Oh that I could do the same now - and I am in a high rate house and on a pension though currently my wife works.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 08:07 AM

Poll and Council Taxes are regressive and inequitable. Local taxes should be collected by a local income tax. The more you have, the more you pay.

But Teribus and his rich mates wouldn't like that, because they'd have to pay more than the poor. Unless they could find a way of wriggling out of paying their fair whack, the way they do with most other taxes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 11:02 AM

I agree that local income tax would be a good idea BUT as you correctly say the rich avoid most taxes - so that would be just another one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 12:40 PM

Most people would agree that those who have most should pay most! (in tax terms)
As long as that does not include them.
We then spend forever arguing the toss over which system is "best" whilst the normal guy in the street gets shafted a bit more!
I bet you could apply the above to most 1st world countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 04:18 AM

"It would certainly prevent anomalies like mine where 2 people on limited incomes [pension/benefits] pay the same amount of council tax as the people down the road a wee bit who have 3 wage earners in their house." - Giok

"There will always be anomalies like that John. But you make the assumption that people paid the poll tax. Large numbers of people avoided it." - Folkiedave

With an ever aging population, Folkiedave, it was amazing how many times such "anomalies" came into play. For the rest the same applies to Council Tax, the same would apply to "Local Income tax".

On energy the sooner the UK bites the bullet and goes nuclear, the same way as France, we are always going to be on a hiding to nothing


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 04:51 AM

The anomaly of the Poll Tax was that a millionaire paid the same as a low paid worker. If you believe that people should pay taxes according to their income then the Poll Tax was grossly unfair.

The fact is that a tax on property is the one tax the rich cannot avoid - though its impact upon them is limited.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 05:43 AM

"Poll and Council Taxes are regressive and inequitable. Local taxes should be collected by a local income tax. The more you have, the more you pay."

This would work provided the politicians of every side had the balls to actually make their rich supporters pay - this is the real fly in the ointment.

During the campaign of civil disobedience I and several people I know refused to pay the poll tax. I had hours of fun arguing and hassling the local council's financial department as I avoided being sent to court (successfully as it turned out).

However, one of the lads I knew who was a student with a part-time job had been told he had to pay (even though he should have been exempt) was sent to court and had decided to defend himself. He wrote an excellent statment to read out in court, swotted up on the procedures to make sure he was able to speak to the court and off he went. When we saw him in the pub later, he was crestfallen. He had been told, contrary to law he wouldn't be given his allotted time to speak and his case was essentially decided before he even set foot in the courthouse. We all knew we'd have to pay - the proles always do - but at least we thought we could make our point peacefully before the powers that be.

Interestingly enough, I knew the JP who tried this chap - he worked for a large company nearby and he was a client of the firm where I worked, a well-off businessman. I'd had business dealings with him and asked him about the case - why weren't the courts hearing the cases fairly? is't this a travesty of justice if a citizen couldn't defend himself in a court of law? His reply was that he couldn't give a shit about anyone who came in front of him in a poll tax case, he couldn't care less about their rights in the courthouse and if they came before him they would be convicted regardless. I later discovered the same JP was also producing hard-core pornography locally - hiring the models, going to the shoots, getting the printing done - the works.

Sordid little people, enforcing the vicious policies of politicians who held a large proportion of the people in this country in utter contempt simply because they didn't have enough money - this is the truth of the poll tax, and the best thing to come out of the whole sorry mess was the riots, which certainly put a rocket up the arse of Thatcher and her cronies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:12 AM

State funding of political parties would remove the need to lick rich arses in order to get re-elected. Maybe if that happened then we would see courageous rather then cowardly politics.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 12:20 PM

Immigration from the UK to Australia has trebled in the last 4 years I just heard on radio 4.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:21 PM

"During the campaign of civil disobedience I and several people I know refused to pay the poll tax." - Stigweard

OK Stig, now how would you regard it if others all of a sudden in their own "campaign of civil disobedience" decided which taxes they would pay and which taxes they would not - would you, by your own previously set precedent support them at the cost of your own dimished services, or would you condemn them as parasites.

The unbound hypocracy of the left never ceases to amaze me.

Folkiedave in your analogy you forget to mention that in addition to the Poll Tax the millionaire you speak of would also pay a damn sight more in income tax than the low paid worker. You also omit the fact that what Poll Tax went towards was probably of far greater benefit to the low paid worker than ever it was to the millionaire.

The tenets of the left:

It is always somebody else's fault.

Somebody else should always pay.

Unfortunately real life is not like that, learn to live with that fact and get on with it.

Emigration to Australia trebled in the last four years, I'm not surprised, but it won't be the likes of Sigweard, Backwoodsman or Folkiedave that have gone. There is no soft option in uprooting yourself and transplanting yourself and your future in a foreign land - you've got to work for whatever you wish for, nobody is going to hand it to you on a platter - a concept the likes of Stigweard, Folkiedave and Backwoodsman just cannot seem to grasp, they want some rich "bastard" to come along and provide it for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: vectis
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:36 PM

My youngest has just gone to the antipodes. Fed up to the back teeth with being p####d about by the NHS he has taken his highly specialised skills elsewhere.
Now he has a decent wage, far less petty regulation and interference, better prospects of advancement and a much better lifestyle for an outdoor activities & extreme sports lover.
His father and I are thinking of joining him for the same reasons (except I'm in education rather than health).

Over taxation, lack of real opportunity, over regulation, the strenuous application of silly rules and regulations, paperwork: paperwork: paperwork, crime and the erosion of ancient freedoms all make this country less and less desireable.
I would sooooo miss the folk though...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 07:58 PM

teribus - "The unbound hypocracy of the left never ceases to amaze me."

Yes, well, it is the habit of people on both the Left and the Right to be constantly amazed at the others' hypocrisy, while of course completely unaware of their own. ;-) Hypocrisy has never been confined to only one side of any great political divide, and it probably never shall be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:54 AM

I'll second that one Little Hawk!
Just because someone is a millionaire does NOT mean they pay more tax .... they should do, but we have a system where the "rich" can afford accountants who know the tax loopholes. Having said that the ballance of probabillity is that he does pay more.
It's my fence and I'll sit on it if I want to!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:55 AM

"Having said that the ballance of probabillity is that he does pay more."

Probably, but it's usually proportionately less than your average Joe. That's what gives me the shits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:38 AM

Folkiedave in your analogy you forget to mention that in addition to the Poll Tax the millionaire you speak of would also pay a damn sight more in income tax than the low paid worker. You also omit the fact that what Poll Tax went towards was probably of far greater benefit to the low paid worker than ever it was to the millionaire.

That is probably the most breathtaking piece of unbridled nonsense I have read in a long time.

As a percentage of income most millionaires pay less tax than the low paid worker. Let me quote an example or two. The Vestey Family who owned a huge slice of Britain's meat industry from the farms and processing plants in Argentina - through their refrigerated ships that brought the meat to Britain through to the butcher's shops that sold the meat NEVER PAID A PENNY in income tax until 1991 - through exploitation of tax loopholes not available to low-paid workers whose income is taxed at source. Their chain of butchers's shops paid £10.00 (yes that is ten pounds) on profits of £2.3 million in 1978.

One of the richest people in the UK is Sir Philp Green. The BBC's Money Programme calculated that Green and his family had 'saved themselves' £285m from their £1.2bn salary by living for a part of the year in Monaco, whose residents don't pay income tax.

They also made money by stealing land from Australian aborigines but that's another story.

Now tell me how a low-paid worker can avoid tax like that? I don't know of any Teribus but then I don't live in the cloud-cuckoo land that you do.

All local income tax mainly goes to paying wages, salaries of teachers and other local government workers. As for benefiting the low paid - in fact the money local government spends on for example cultural activities is mainly enjoyed by high income families - the people who can afford to go to heavily subsidised classical music concerts, local theatres and the like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:42 AM

That's the Vestey brothers made money stealing land - not Sir Philip Green.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:01 PM

OK for a start you pay what you have to pay. Now if everybody did exactly that and the thousands of sterling working class souls did not defraud the benefits sytems all would be well. Now all you valiant left-wingers out there, if you would just acknowledge that all would be well. Unfortunately you don't you will always find ample excuses for one and find only utter condemnation for the other.

Now let's get this straight, the Vestey family's chain of butcher shops "paid £10.00 (yes that is ten pounds) on profits of £2.3 million in 1978." Sorry Folkiedave I don't believe you - best you come up with some very hard evidence to support your statement.

Now just to hammer logic a bit if a tax loophole exists it exists for the rich and poor alike - True? It either exists in law or it does not, and as such is available to the rich and poor alike.

To examine some of your other statements:

"The Vestey Family who owned a huge slice of Britain's meat industry from the farms and processing plants in Argentina"

If it is located in Agentina, it is not really "Britain's" meat industry is it Folkiedave? And that being the case why should it be subject to British tax? Please explain? You obviously seem to think that it should. It would be interesting to hear your views on this because it doesn't and you damn well know that it doesn't.

"through their refrigerated ships that brought the meat to Britain"

Now Folkiedave these ships, are they owned by the Vestey family? Are they flagged under the "Red Ensign"? If the answer to either question Folkiedave is No then the profits made are not liable to UK Tax - True?

Now let's see
"Their chain of butchers's shops paid £10.00 (yes that is ten pounds) on profits of £2.3 million in 1978."

We are talking almost thirty years ago, during the term of a properly constituted Labour Government as recognised as being such by the looney-left i.e yourself, Stigweard and Backwoodsman. Now this £2.3 million, was that turn-over? pre-tax profit? or post tax profit? From your post it would seem to indicate pre-tax profit, at a time when corporation tax stood at what level? 50%? And under the watchful eye of a Labour government they paid only £10? Now if that were the case, and I don't believe it for one second, who exactly is at fault here Folkiedave, the Vestey Family for using the legal means at their disposal or the Labour Government for failing to collect whatever tax is due. In 1978 compare what Tax should have been collected against what actually was and I believe that you will find that the Vesteys were not those who defrauded the British Exchequer the most.

Hey Folkiedave start dealing with those troublesome facts, stop peddling the usual left-wing propaganda. I remember when you trotted out the so called fact that Rumsfeld went to Baghdad to sell arms and I proved quirte conclusively that he did not. Now if I explode this latest left wing myth of yours you will:

1) Have the honesty to admit it

2) Refrain from posting such complete and utter crap on this forum ever again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:53 PM

We all seem to be in aggreement on this thread...it is ALL about TAXES

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

It will be a lovely day when we have a view of prince Herbert shovelling the streets before the common man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 04:45 AM

"OK Stig, now how would you regard it if others all of a sudden in their own "campaign of civil disobedience" decided which taxes they would pay and which taxes they would not - would you, by your own previously set precedent support them at the cost of your own dimished services, or would you condemn them as parasites.

The unbound hypocracy (sic) of the left never ceases to amaze me."


As stated above they do - we all know many of the rich are tax-dodgers and don't pay their fair share to society (benefit fraud - despicable though it is - is not what we are talking about here). They are of course happy to receive the benefits of the society they make so much money out of.

But you're getting confused Teribus, and you need to understand intent is an important factor here. It was never my intention to defraud or decide not to pay the poll tax , I knew eventually I would have to. My intent was to register my objection to an unjust tax which favoured rich people in big houses, and to make collection of that tax as difficult as possible for the government.

The wealthy that take advantages of loopholes not available to those less well off deliberately intend to withold money for their own personal game and to increase the tax burden on the rest of us - including you. Their motivation is completely different. The fact these loopholes are left in place by a so-called socialist government is pretty galling, but we all know that most of our politicians are arse-licking the wealthy - it's one of the reasons politics has become so despised by the public.

As I have said, I own my own small business and I pay large amounts of tax, especially when buying new equipment. I don't dodge my tax burden because as a member of the loony left (cheers - one of the best compliments you could have given me) I actually believe I have a responsibility to society to pay my share when I earn it.

The rancorous nature and corrupt moral integrity of the right wing never cease to amaze me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 04:47 AM

Now just to hammer logic a bit if a tax loophole exists it exists for the rich and poor alike - True?

What a naive and simplistic view of life you have Teribus.

As carefully explained to you (but clearly not carefully enough) they are not available to rich and poor alike. So the answer to that is - not true.

Let me try and get that through to you again in the hopes that this time around you understand it.

If you are taxed at source by your employer as the lower paid tend to be, then you are unable to avoid tax. The rich almost invariably have income that is not taxed at source and so they can avoid tax. Geddit?

As far the Vestey Empire is concerned - it was a British company whose profits were remitted to the UK. Had the profits stayed in Argentina they may have been taxed on them - but they didn't, they sent them back here because they weren't paying any tax here - remember?

The only advantage the Argentinians got from it was paid (and taxed probably) employment. The ships were flagged UK - Liverpool as I remember. They didn't have to flag them in low tax, low safety countries - they weren't paying tax in the UK - remember?

They spent some of their untaxed profits on a £15 million pile called Stowell Park in Gloucestershire. Do you think they did that so they didn't live in the UK? Do you believe people who live in the UK should pay tax in the UK on their income? And if not would you tell me how I can avoid doing it?

Where money is made in most irrelevant in most tax regimes. Rich people just declare they live in another country - where the tax regime is lowest - like Philip Green and a host of other city financiers do - they live in Monaco. Again that option is not available to the low-paid. But you clearly think it is, since you believe tax aviodance is something both the rich and poor can do!!

It isn't a case of failing to collect tax that is due - it is clever accountants who spend their life dreaming up schemes for the rich to avoid tax.

As for the source of my quote I am fed up of doing your research for you - go seek it out yourself. You might learn something to avoid the nonsense you spout whilst doing so.

As for posting crap do you sincerely believe that the rich don't spend time and money trying to avoid tax via routes not available to the low-paid? So who do you think puts the billions into off-shore accounts? The low-paid?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Hotspur
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 08:22 AM

My father has just been denied medication for his cancer due to the high cost of the drug. His G.P. told him our local health authority simply hasn't the money to pay for it. We lost our local hospital accident and emergency department last year due to cutbacks in the budget.

Most of the clothing manufacturers in this area have closed down due to cheap foreign imports. Unemployment figures in the area are at the same level they were in 1978.


Our government gave several million pounds of tax payers money to the "under developed" countries who are producing the cheaper imported clothing which closed down our industry.

The war in Iraq has already cost several billion pounds, on Friday the UK government gave an undertaking to provide 700 million pounds to a regeneration programme over the next two years in Afghanistan.


You ask why are people opting to leave the UK ?

Maybe it's because many like myself feel like second class citizens under a government that should realise charity should begin at home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 05:44 PM

Folkiedave, it doesn't matter a damn if tax is deducted at source or not, the same means of mitigating the amount you pay in tax is available to all.

Been a long time since I looked into it but you can have up to seventeen and a quarter per cent of your "net relevant income" (i.e your gross earned pay) tax free, but you have to put that into a pension, the money is spent, but it is spent to your longterm advantage and interest. Now having reduced your taxable income by anything up to 17% many would find that that drops their overall tax burden quite considerably, you do of course have to submit a tax return form and claim your pre-paid tax back.

I can never remember which is illegal and which isn't tax avoidance I believe is legal, whereas tax evasion is not. A good accountant will give excellent advice, his fee is automatically tax deductable and he/she can save anybody hundreds if not thousands in tax - all perfectly aboveboard and legal and available to all.

The Vestey's by the way have all their financial dealings done through Monaco, not the UK and have done so for a great number of years. It's the one big flaw when it comes to the hard-over leftists yelling tax the rich. Trudeau in Canada once put it rather well, he asked, "If you are a multi-millionare and you can live in Canada and pay 15% tax or live in the USA and pay 20%, where do you live?" The answer he got back was Canada. "OK, so we tax the rich, you're the same multi-millionaire and you can now live in Canada and pay 25% tax or live in the USA and pay 20% where do you live?" The answer he got back was the USA. "So by taxing the rich as the left advocates, those with the money you want to tax move and although you've increased the rate of tax your income goes down because you end up collecting less."


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 06:00 PM

I think the distinction between tax evasion and tax avoidance should be that anything you do primarily to avoid paying tax, but wouldn't otherwise do, counts as tax evasion. (Leaving aside charity giving.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 07:43 PM

Folkiedave, it doesn't matter a damn if tax is deducted at source or not, the same means of mitigating the amount you pay in tax is available to all.

I have tried explaining this to you twice and I am happy to try again. Words of one syllable if you like. That's probably too many syllables for you even then - but never mind I'll try.

If your income is taxed at source you have no way of avoiding tax. NO WAY. Understand that Teribus?

If your income is not taxed at source there are numerous ways of avoiding tax. NUMEROUS WAYS. Understand that Teribus?

Most low paid people are taxed at source - most rich people are not.

Since you have difficulty understanding the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion - I can never remember which is illegal and which isn't - do you not think it is best to stop spouting bollocks about a subject of which you seem to have little understanding of even the simplest of concepts?

The Vestey's by the way have all their financial dealings done through Monaco

That'll be Monaco where all income is tax free? Tell me Teribus is your income paid via Monaco? And if not why not? After all income in Monaco is tax-free and these tax avoidance schemes apply to everyone equally, so why don't you take advantage of it?

Simple question Teribus - have you ever paid tax in the UK (since you seem to be a UK citizen) and if you have, why did you not take advantage of the fact that Monaco as a place where you could have received your income, since as you say it is available to all?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 09:08 PM

Reading todays Telegraph.
Britons who retire early in France lose free health care.
Migrants here free health care for all ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 01:33 AM

Explained in terms as simple as possible Folkiedave if you are taxed at source you can still use ways of reducing the amount of tax you have to pay, all you have to do is claim it back. Now what is it about that, that you a former university lecturer, cannot grasp.

Yes paid tax in the UK for years, Folkiedave, in all probability a damn sight more than you. I also used the services of an accountant to make sure that I paid only what I had to. Many working in the same industry as myself, while not going to Monaco did go to live in France or elswhere abroad. In the former if you worked outside metropolitan France for more than six months of the year you did not pay state taxes, you only had to pay the local tax for the area you lived in.

As for spouting bollocks:
The definition:
"Tax avoidance is the legal utilization of the tax regime to one's own advantage, in order to reduce the amount of tax that is payable by means that are within the law. By contrast tax evasion is the general term for efforts by individuals, firms, trusts, and other entities to evade taxes by illegal means."

So what I said originally - "I can never remember which is illegal and which isn't tax avoidance I believe is legal, whereas tax evasion is not." - would appear to have been right on the button and not bollocks at all Folkiedave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 02:18 AM

Good information thas has proved true in my expereinces this summer.

Brit ex-pats go to France (if they work it is a hobby under-table) they swear by the quality of their French health care.

USers DO go to Canada

Within the states Nevada and the Dakotas are considered good places.....a brief summer trip and you are thousands richers.

There are multiple webpages explaining the processs....you DO NOT need to go to Jersey to escape.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:34 AM

Yes paid tax in the UK for years, Folkiedave, in all probability a damn sight more than you. I also used the services of an accountant to make sure that I paid only what I had to.

In that case you clearly paid (as you say) a lot of tax.

But millionaires like the Vestey's didn't pay any at all and their scheme was only closed down in 1991. Millionaires like Philip Green don't pay any tax at all.

So I can't understand why you paid any tax - let alone a damn sight more than me, unless you really wanted to support the low-paid and the benefit claimants out of the goodness of your heart. On the other hand, perhaps you needed a better accountant.

Tell me why you paid any tax Teribus - these schemes are available to all - or were they not available to you for some reason, or was your accountant not up to speed?

"Tax avoidance is the legal utilization of the tax regime to one's own advantage, in order to reduce the amount of tax that is payable by means that are within the law. By contrast tax evasion is the general term for efforts by individuals, firms, trusts, and other entities to evade taxes by illegal means."

There you are you see - you can look things up when you want to. Now off you go and find out how Dewhirst's only paid £10.00 tax on profits of £2.3 million in 1978.

As for the quote of course by using the internet when you don't really understand what you are talking about, you only get half the story.

You see accountants and tax solicitors spend time DEVISING SCHEMES TO AVOID TAX and then testing them out with clients. Your accountant would have told you to put money into your pension scheme (it isn't tax avoidance though it is tax efficient, since generally speaking you pay tax on the pension when it is paid out), or you can claim this or that as a legitimate business expense. Your accountant may have told you to take income in dividend payments rather than salary. A bit of a fiddle since dividends are taxed at a lower rate. But some people spend time inventing tax avoidance schemes. Sometimes these are declared illegal by the Inland Revenue.

There is one scheme devised (NB devised) which involves circular loans to generate tax losses. It was registered in Delaware USA and generated losses via a German Bank. Although it is registered in Delaware and used a German Bank it was to avoid UK tax. See what I mean about devising schemes?

The scheme came to light when a dotcom. millionaire sued them. I won't go into the details but it involved billions of dollars of loans and the millionaire sued for the money it cost him in fees - £2 million incidentally just in fees for advice - when (eventually) it was declared fraudulent. It is still going through a long and complicated procedure of appeal, three to four years later. We, those of us taxed at source, have lost squillions through this tax avoidance scheme declared by the Inland Revenue to be illegal. So we pay extra whilst the tax avoiders screw us. And then we wait for it to go through the courts.

Incidentally you haven't yet told me who you think puts the money into tax-free off-shore accounts. Have you decided yet whether it is the poor or the rich?

Finally - what makes you think I am or have been a university lecturer? I do not remember mentioning it anywhere so I am intrigued. You been using the internet again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:46 AM

Since my aforementioned friends sold up and went to live in France due to an excess of Tony Blair, the husband has been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. They are full of praise for the French health service, and the quick and easy access given to a specialist in Paris, followed by medication which seems to be controlling his decline, and the associated tremors.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 11:48 AM

Something to do with residency Folkiedave.

As to the Vestey's and the likes of Phillip Green, whether they should pay UK tax or not depends on where they are domiciled. The Vestey's tax arrangements go way back to the time that Lloyd George was Prime Minister. They may own a mansion and an estate in the UK but if they are not domiciled in the UK for tax purposes then they don't pay anything. Dockyard workers working for the MOD in places like Gibraltar, Malta, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc used to qualify for this after having been out there for about three years. One of the reasons a General Service Commission for one of HM Ships was restricted to two and a half years was so that the crew would not qualify and as such were always subject to full UK tax.

If you can work at it you can attain "Resident but not domiciled" status which lifts you clear off UK Tax. I could never do that as I had a wife and family resident in the UK, therefore I was "Resident and domiciled" in the UK and as such always fully subject to UK tax, but that did not stop me from avoiding as much of it as possible.

Now questions for you Folkiedave:
- Who was it that introduced the 10% Tax band - Labour or Conservative?
- Who was it lowered basic rate tax to 20% in the UK - Labour or Conservative?

I left the UK about ten years ago. Where I live now the tax rates are much higher, but the standard of living and quality of life is correspondingly higher than that of the UK. What gets collected in tax gets spent on all the right things and one can see the improvements in standards and services.

In about a years time I collect my pension from the Royal Navy, few years after that my OAP from the UK Government, a couple after that my pension from the Company I now work for and shortly after that my own personal pension kicks in. As I said Folkiedave I paid only what I had to and I never had any cause for complaint with regard to services and advice rendered by my accountant. There's absolutely nothing stopping anybody from doing the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 01:58 PM

Now as you freely admit - these tax avoidance schemes are not available to all. Not even to you. Thank you. And Vestey's did live here. The tax avoidance scheme they ran was that good. I gave you the address earlier.

And those sailors you write about who were taxed at source - the UK government made sure they paid full UK tax. See what I mean? At that time they couldn't do it to the Vestey's who were not taxed at source - but my goodness me - become a low-paid sailor and the government makes sure you pay. There is a difference as you now admit. Well done for coming around to my way of thinking.

And you tell me where you live has higher tax rates AND a higher standard of living? Now that seems like an argument for higher taxes Teribus. Welcome to the club.

I am not sure what the point of me answering a question on who introduced what rates of tax when I am sure you know the answer. But whatever you say - how's that?

However there is a point in asking who you think puts money into tax-free off-shore schemes. You seem to avoid this one. Come on Teribus is it the rich putting money into tax free off-shore schemes or is it the poor?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 02:24 PM

The person who defined socialism as "The politics of envy", sure hit the bullseye didn't they?
G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 03:03 PM

As did the person who defined conservatism as "The politics of the greedy and the selfish".


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 04:42 PM

Not forgetting it's politics of the people who make the wealth that the socialists grudge them, though not always. There are always anomalies like Tony Benn and LORD Putnam.
G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:19 PM

Tax avoidance schemes are available to all, all people have to do is avail themselves of them, professor. Those poor sailor's you voice your concern about, could still bring whatever additional allowances into play to reduce their overall tax (Had to claim it back though), their employers just would not let them attain the resident but not domiciled status allowed their civilian counterparts, who did not object one bit - but being of the left you obviously subscribe to there being one law for the goose and another for the gander. I much prefer one law for all applied even-handedly.

But then I suppose you have to remember the governing tenets of the whining left:

It's always somebody else's fault.

It's always somebody else that has to pay.

Where the Vestey's lived doesn't matter a damn if they have qualified for being "resident but not domiciled in the UK" for tax purposes.

"who (do) you think puts money into tax-free off-shore schemes?" Now the correct answer to that would be anybody that wants to I suppose.

Yes higher rates of tax than the UK, at least one of the highest standards of living in the world. Very good arguement for higher taxes Folkiedave, but they go right across the board and everybody pays them. How long you can spend on welfare is strictly limited, if you don't find yourself a job, after that certain period they will put you into one. The whole system is very transparent you can see what they spend the money on, they don't rob pensions as our new PM did when he was Chancellor to finance some daft experimental fad only to lose interest half way through it.

Go back and read down that list of election promises Tony was so keen on harping on about way back in 1997 - How many were kept? Rhetoric question, the answer was none.

It was the Conservatives that lowered the basic rates of tax in the UK - wasn't it Folkiedave? Which put more money into peoples pockets and most chose to spend it, good for business, good for the country. Back to a matter of choice again Folkiedave, it's all a matter of choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:32 PM

I'm a 26 year old graduate working for Cambridge Uni, I've put myself in huge debt to get where I am now and will likely never be able to afford a house because of the state of affairs in the UK.

I have lived in the city for 3 years and have seen in this time a dramatic change in what was already a very multi-cultural city. In the last 6 months alone every shop, pub and business I visit, and even my own canteen at work has at least one Polish person working there. Last month I went for a drink on Whitehall and the situation was the same, last weekend I went on a friends stag do in Dorset, again, the same... My friends father has been laid off from his job as a lorry driver to make way for a 'cheaper' Polish lorry' driver. Builders are sacked on Friday only to be replaced on Monday by 'migrant workers', who being 'self employed' do not have to register in the same was as normal workers. Does any of this make sense?

Is it not the case that the huge numbers of migrants that do not register i.e. the 'self employed' builders etc are only offset partially by the hundreds of thousands of people like myself who have just had enough and have emigrated?

Also the economic argument for mass immigration is completely flawed, either the immigrants send money home, thus depriving the UK of income and removing money from the system (which I don't imagine is a good thing) or they bring their families with them thus causing a massive burden on the NHS, housing, schools and councils. Not to mention the large numbers of skilled workers being made redundant or forced into early retirement to make way for cheaper migrant workers. How exactly is this of economic benefit? It is a false economy and a short term and naive policy to make the government look like they are actually managing the economy properly. The bubble will burst soon enough, but it is already too late.

Not to mention the outright lies being pedalled by the Government regarding the numbers of migrants. The overall population increase is only being offset by the hundreds of thousands of Brits moving abroad because they can no longer stand living in a Britain so chronically mismanaged. I find myself feeling more this way every day. This Governments immigration policy (if indeed it is even a policy) is terrible. I love this country and hate any suggestion that a person complaining about the undoubted immigration problem is automatically some kind of Nazi.
But I can't help but thinking that the UK is truly doomed. I admire those in Canada and NZ where they have a sensible approach to immigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:56 PM

Teribus - Where the Vestey's lived doesn't matter a damn if they have qualified for being "resident but not domiciled in the UK" for tax purposes.

They lived in this country - they were not "resident but not domiciled" for tax purposes. They avoided tax by other means. I have explained this to you more than once.

Now the correct answer to that would be anybody that wants to I suppose

Well Teribus you suppose wrongly. The people who put money into tax- free off-shore schemes are the rich. They can afford it. You cannot just open up an off-shore account you need a certain amount of capital. The rich avoid paying tax that way. Thus the rest of us - taxed at source - have to pay more tax and support the rich in their tax-avoiding habits.

Now apparently the country you now live in has a higher standard of living, and higher taxes and everyone pays them.

Good.

Kindly explain why that would not work in the UK? Because not everyone pays tax here as you freely admit. Now I think it would be a better country if they did. Clearly you agree.

Welcome to the left-wing Teribus. And goodness me you were easily converted once you left the UK weren't you!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:41 AM

"Not forgetting it's politics of the people who make the wealth that the socialists grudge them"

Socialism isn't about envying wealth - it's about justice and equality for all members of society regardless of their circumstances of birth. It's about making sure people are healthy, don't have to live in fear and enjoy their human rights.

As a socialist I would agree some form of meritocracy is desirable - socialism in it's purest form simply won't work these days, but I am in favour of all our major utilities being re-nationalised and the NHS being given absolute priority over the military for state funding.

"I love this country and hate any suggestion that a person complaining about the undoubted immigration problem is automatically some kind of Nazi."

The guest above falls for the old right-wing xenophobes cry against immigrants - "Not to mention the large numbers of skilled workers being made redundant or forced into early retirement to make way for cheaper migrant workers" - they're taking our jobs! These same right-wingers espouse the very capitalist system and economics of the free market that has led to this situation - if it even exists outside of the moral mush that is a Daily Mail hack's brain (or those dullards that believe them).

"The overall population increase is only being offset by the hundreds of thousands of Brits moving abroad because they can no longer stand living in a Britain so chronically mismanaged." He's talking about you Teribus - it's all your fault for doing the rodent thing and effing off to a better life whilst the country is overrun with Poles! Should have put your money where you mouth is and stuck it out with the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 05:17 AM

Socialism consists not of bringing everybody UP to the same level, but in bringing everybody DOWN to the same level. Except that is, for Union leaders/General Secretaries driving, or being driven around in their Jaguars!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:12 AM

they're taking our jobs!

Often the argument is also that they are over here to enjoy our benefit system, some people can even argue they are taking our jobs and here to enjoy the benefit system in the same breath.

Not all that many years ago it was the Irish who came over to steal our jobs. Of course in Ireland now, it is the other way around in that the flow of immigration tends to be the other way.

And you would be amazed at the number of Brits abroad I have heard saying they left the UK because of immigration!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 12:26 PM

If tax accountants invent some fancy scheme which turns out to count as tax evasion rather than tax avoidance are they liable to be penalised professionally and legally? I'd have thought this would count as a kind of conspiracy to commit an offence, so far as the law is concerned. And it should be enough to get them struck of professionally.

Some hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:03 PM

I suspect that the answer would be no. When they create a tax avoidance scheme they "sell" it to clients who then use it to claim money. What happens if it goes pear-shaped is that the client sues them as in the instance I quoted earlier.

Incidentally have you noticed the banks have gone on strike?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6979933.stm

Of course it isn't called that when they do it - but that's what it is. Dodgy dealings in the sub-prime market and the Bank of England looks as if it is bailing them out!

Nice one free market!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:05 PM

Do you want a pension when you retire Dave?
Cos if you do, you better hope the stock market doesn't crash.
G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:13 PM

Retired already mate. Sorry.

And of course for many public servants the the pension is not paid by the stock market but by current income. Teachers for example - there is no Teachers' Pension Fund invested in the stock market.

And as I remember when the stock market goes wrong it tends to be the workers that suffer - never the bosses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:54 PM

A bit like unsuccessful bank robbers suing the guy who drew up the plan that went pear-shaped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:57 PM

So those rich leeches are paying your pension?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM

Which rich leeches Giok?

As teachers pay into their pension schemes the government take it in on the one hand and pay it out to retired teachers with the other. Since generally speaking there are more of the former (payers) than the latter (retired) they keep the difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 04:01 AM

That's like believing in fairies, or that they spend all the monies taken in VED are spend on maintaining and building the roads!
G


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 11:47 AM

Oh no Giok - Folkiedave is quite right about his pension fund not relying on investments - Teachers - Public Servants - The major contributor to their Pension Fund is the Government (Taxpayers Money) time, after time, after time - Indexed linked above the rate of inflation (Taxpayers Money) - Pension, or more correctly benefits, continues to be paid long after death to dependents (Taxpayers Money). The Government commitment to this lot, means that the rest lost out. When Gordon Brown raided the National pension funds, this sacred cow was left to continue grazing. Now what was that again about leeches.

Definitions:
1 archaic : PHYSICIAN, SURGEON
2 [from its former use by physicians for bleeding patients] : any of numerous carnivorous or bloodsucking usually freshwater annelid worms (class Hirudinea) that have typically a flattened lanceolate segmented body with a sucker at each end
3 : a hanger-on who seeks advantage or gain
synonym see PARASITE

So typical of the Left, now explain to us Folkiedave why all pensions aren't similarly index linked. Or is it the old "Animal Farm" scenario again, all animals are equal but some are more equal than others, isn't Socialism great.

Your pension Folkiedave is a classic example of what Stigweard came out with - "Socialism isn't about envying wealth - it's about justice and equality for all members of society regardless of their circumstances of birth." (but not job it would seem)

Another Stigweard classic:
"Socialism isn't about envying wealth"

Oh No!!

"He's talking about you Teribus - it's all your fault for doing the rodent thing and effing off to a better life whilst the country is overrun with Poles! Should have put your money where you mouth is and stuck it out with the rest of us."

Good heavens, the very thought of it! The unmitigated gall of it! People "effing off to a better life". How dare they! Those "effing" Pilgrim Fathers have got one hell of alot to answer for. Not the politics of envy, eh Stigweard?

Another little secret for Folkiedave, Stigweard and Backwoodsman - the country by and large has been mismanaged for centuries to some degree or other, but has always managed to survive. It has only been "chronically mismanaged" in recent times. Margaret Thatcher arrested the fall (as admitted very recently by the current Labour Prime Minister). The "chronic mismanagement creeps in when things are driven by political dogma and idealism instead of pragmatism and leadership.

By the bye I don't recall anyone complaining about the country being overrun by Poles in 1940. In those days without the Poles, Czechs, etc - we'd have lost The Battle of Britain.

Country overrun with Poles indeed - the only poles that have overrun the country are telegraph poles. You all wanted the United States of Europe well you've got it, live with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 12:28 PM

First of all Teribus - if you paid into a pension then it was funded in part by the tax payer - in the form of relief though I suspect you wouldn't want that mentioned. Secondly Indexed linked above the rate of inflation if only Teribus if only.

And the good pensions public servants get - and ex-forces people too of course - is the first thing brought up whenever a decent pay rise is mentioned and the pay rise has been cut as a matter of course.

I certainly have no problems with people leaving the UK for a better life. Or people leaving Poland for a better life. All countries are mis-managed to some degree. But the idea that destroying large parts of British industry and (for example)its apprenticeship system, and then using the oil revenue to pay for it,(instead of investing that oil revenue in replacement industry) was a good one, has come home to roost in the form of social conflagration. So the tax-payer pays for that in the form of disaffected youth, poor schooling and some increased crime and thus an increased prison population. You and me Teribus. I am not happy about that. Are you?

As for a change from Thatcher through Major to Blair, never mind what country are you in, what planet are you on?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 12:37 PM

Teribus - "The chronic mismanagement creeps in when things are driven by political dogma and idealism".

You're talking about Thatcher there.

Also I'm PM'ing you about your cheap 'Poles' jibe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 12:45 PM

Well now that the Common Market, and other market forces have destroyed our manufacturing industries, where do we apprentice these youngsters, and to learn what. Don't forget that between the Common Market, and the fact that the cost of manufacturing went through the roof, driving work abroad to lower wage economies they were all gone or going before Maggie arrived..
Excessive wage demands and over manning due to union blackmail, caused most of that.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 01:02 PM

So you're in favour of slave-labour then Giok? You don't believe that a man who works in a hard, dangerous environment should be well-rewarded for his toil. But presumably you're happy that someone who does nothing more than talk on the telephone and move numbers around can receive bonuses in the millions, while the first guy coughs his life and lungs away in his two-up-two-down council house?

I'm not so stupid as to believe that 'we're all equal', or that we ever could be. Some inequality is the vital spur that makes people strive to climb to the top of the heap, and in that it serves a useful purpose. But she wasn't satisfied with maintaining the status-quo, she despised the working-class and, like the true high-school 6th-form queen-bee, she was a vicious bully whose appetites were only satisfied by seeing those she viewed as 'weaklings' and 'low-class' cowering in the corner, kicked and beaten into submission.

In Dave Evardson's words from his great song 'The North Wall' - "Could they not have left a little, did they have to take it all?"

Guess who and which party he was talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 01:19 PM

That's some leap of logic Backwoodsman. That is the problem really both sides want to control the other, and there never has been, and there never will be, give and take. Union bullying is just as bad as employer exploitation, but neither side can see it.
G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 01:20 PM

"Not the politics of envy, eh Stigweard?"

Good to see your sense of humour and ability to recognise sarcasm hasn't deserted you yet Mr. T - (unlike you deserting the UK of course . . .)

I'm not envious of you Teribus because I don't have a clue where you live - outside the UK could be, er, anywhere. My Mum was an expat for five years, living in rural France. It was a wonderful place, and I enjoyed visiting her but realised living abroad was probably not for me (although I would like to try the north west coast of the USA for a year or two.) I learnt a lot about the French, and came back with a totally different viewpoint. I developed a respect for their desire for good food and drink, their love of their language (which they debate endlessly) and of course the fact they are a Republic is of course deserving of our admiration.

What I did realise is what a load of miserable misanthropes live here, the fact we've lost our sense of community in our towns and cities (although that's not a soley British problem) and how we readily accept second-rate food and drink and eat complete shite alot of the time. My wife and I re-appraised our own food buying after returning and started buying more local produce from small retailers - fresh bread and local meat from a traditional butcher. Better quality food and cheaper too much of the time.

"By the bye I don't recall anyone complaining about the country being overrun by Poles in 194os" Showing your age a bit there old boy . . . I'm totally in favour of migrant workers being allowed in the country under new the EU rules. I worry for their employment rights (and human rights - some gangmasters are ruthless criminals) and the fact they are exploited mercilessly by the same capitialist system that has expolited it's own citizens for so many years - the fact migrant workers do the jobs everyone else doesn't want to do makes them easy targets for unscrupulous and unethcial employers.

"You all wanted the United States of Europe well you've got it, live with it."
Too right -and I'll be voting for it come the referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 02:20 PM

your cheap 'Poles' jibe.

I can't see why there was anything wrong with what Teribus said there. (And I've disagreed with him often enough, and I am sure I will continue to do so.) It just seemed his way of pointing out that talk about Poles overunning this country is tosh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 02:37 PM

"Don't forget that between the Common Market, and the fact that the cost of manufacturing went through the roof, driving work abroad to lower wage economies they were all gone or going before Maggie arrived." - Giok

Never a truer word spoken.

As for the - "cheap 'Poles' jibe" - Backwoodsman

"I can't see why there was anything wrong with what Teribus said there. (And I've disagreed with him often enough, and I am sure I will continue to do so.) It just seemed his way of pointing out that talk about Poles overunning this country is tosh." - MGOH

Thanks for that Kevin, I'm glad somebody got the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 03:45 PM

Yep, I'll give way on that one Teribus and Kevin. Apologies.
BTW Teribus, thanks for your PM, I've sent one back.
S:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 08:51 PM

"If you're looking for a previous period to blame for things going wrong on the streets, a better candidate than 60s "progressivism", I suggest would be the Thatcherite ethos of laissez faire and evil take the hindmost which devastated whole communities and threw millions of people out of work."

Sorry McG, but Thatcher came to power just about the time that those undisciplined, ill educated kids were producing the next generation of even less disciplined offspring.

I know you hate Maggie, but even you can't pretend that she could time travel back to the early sixties, to screw up the teenagers.

As for leaving the country, I can't even afford to do THAT for a week on a cheap package deal. I am going to have to keep working into my late seventies, courtesy of one Gordon Brown.

It weren't Maggie Thatcher that buggered my pension, it was that gormless dollop of pickled misery that just took over as PM.

God Help England, and if we asked them VERY nicely, d'ye think the Scots would take him back.

Frankly if we got rid of him, and kept all the Eastern migrants, I'd say we got the best of the bargain.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 04:53 AM

Thanks Don, but you can keep him! Anyway why him and not TB, who was also a Scot, you never offered us him back. Not that we'd have taken him either mind you!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 08:53 AM

"you paid into a pension then it was funded in part by the tax payer"

That's a bit of a twist of logic! The govt agreeing not to tax me on any of my salary put aside as a pension (to avoid my future burden on the state) is taking money off the taxpayer!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 09:02 AM

The money the government takes in the form of PAYE or Graduated Pensions, or whatever they're calling it these days isn't 'put aside', it's spent straight away for whatever purpose they deem fit, and your government pension when it comes will be paid from current incomes.
If you supplement your government pension with a pension of your own, and your income from them exceeds your personal tax free allowance, make no mistake you will pay tax mate.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 09:47 AM

The government gives me tax relief on my pension contributions but to say that that money (the tax relief) is coming from the "tax-payer" is stretching things a bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 09:58 AM

Hey Paul, if they're giving it to you with one hand, they will be taking it away with the other. That's how those sneaky gubmints work.
It sleight of hand, an old conman trick, think 3 shells, and disappearing objects.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 10:58 AM

"Thanks Don, but you can keep him! Anyway why him and not TB, who was also a Scot, you never offered us him back. Not that we'd have taken him either mind you!"


A revisit to my posting history will reveal that I have already made my feelings about Tony B Liar very clear.

The Scots have never done me that much harm that I would wish to inflict such cruel and inhuman punishment, which is why I suggested that we make him our ambassador to Mars, if NASA will lend us a shuttle to send him there.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:44 AM

Point of fact: Shuttles cannot go to Mars, or even beyond NEO.


"to Mars, if NASA will lend us a shuttle to send him there."


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 09:53 AM

Another dream ruined by an injection of unwanted reality.
G


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:26 AM

"TB ....... caused the most widespread public concern in the 19th and early 20th centuries as an endemic disease of the urban poor!" Wikipedia

ooops! sorry I think on this occasion it means Tony Blair


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 08:31 PM

An even more dangerous bug, Emma.

Don T.

P.S. I knew that about the Shuttle. Still once he's in NEO, we don't have to bring him back, do we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:40 PM

"conquering the rest of the wretched island, including all of Scotland as well as neighboring Ireland"--Little Hawk

"Typical imperialist Yank answer to everything--invade and occupy"--Stigweard

Sorry. We can't claim him, much as we'd like to. That typically imperialist Yank is a Canadian who likes to play war games.


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