Mudcat Café message #3829102 The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #161176   Message #3829102
Posted By: Richie
27-Dec-16 - 08:41 PM
Thread Name: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
Ok Steve here's an example, "Beam of Oak" Roud 18830 this is according to Traditional Ballad Index which has:

Beam of Oak (Rambling Boy, Oh Willie)

DESCRIPTION: A farmer's daughter loves a servant man. Her father has him sent to sea. He is killed in battle. His ghost visits the father. The daughter hears about it. She hangs herself. Father finds her hanging. Her note blames the father, who goes mad
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1910 (Lomax, Cowboy Songs)
KEYWORDS: battle navy death suicide father lover ghost
FOUND IN: Canada(Newf) US(SE,So)
REFERENCES (7 citations):
Leach-Labrador 15, "Beam of Oak" (1 text, 1 tune)
MHenry-Appalachians, pp. 173-174, "I Am A Rambling Rowdy Boy" (1 text, short enough that it might be a "Butcher Boy" version, but the first verse tentatively puts it here)
Warner 86, "A Rude and Rambling Boy" (1 text, 1 tune)
Owens-2ed, pp. 61-62, "Oh, Willie" (1 text, 1 tune)
BrownII 81, "The Butcher Boy" (6 texts plus 5 excerpts and mention of 3 others; although most are clearly Laws P24, Renwick believes the "M" text is "Beam of Oak (Rambling Boy, Oh Willie)")
Darling-NAS, pp. 106-107, "The Rambling Boy" (1 text) {filed here based on the title}
ADDITIONAL: Renwick: Roger deV. Renwick, _Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths_, University Press of Mississippi, 2001, pp. 94-95, "Rambling Boy" (1 text, from Lomax's _Cowboy Songs_); also, on pp. 108-109, a broadside, "The Rambling Boy," from Pitts, which he considers to have influenced the song; p. 113, "(William, William, I Love You Well")" (1 text, of another related text)
ST LLab015 (Partial)
Roud #18830
cf. Bodleian, Harding B 25(1597), "The Rambling Boy" ("I an a wild and rambling boy"), J. Pitts (London), 1802-1819 [barely legible]; also Harding B 11(4216), "The Rambling Boy," T. Birt, London, 1833-1841 [This is the related broadside cited by Renwick, not the true "Beam of Oak/Oh Willie" song]
cf. "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24] (theme)
cf. "The Isle of Cloy" (Roud #23272) (location in the "Isle of Cloy," mentioned in the Bodleian "Rambling Boy" broadsides)
NOTES: This is not "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24] in spite of the suicide by hanging, the father finding the body and the suicide note. Consider the differences: the lover is faithful, the father causes the separation, the lover is killed and his ghost returns, and the suicide note blames the father. - BS
Roud used to lump this with "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" [Laws P25], but this is a much more detailed song than that. At most, it might be the inspiration, but even that seems forced. The feeling seems very different -- more like "The Suffolk Miracle" than "The Butcher Boy." In more recent editions, Roud has moved it to #18830, a much more obscure song although related to "The Butcher Boy." It may be that he did this on the basis of Roger deV. Renwick, Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths, University Press of Mississippi, 2001. Renwick, pp. 92-115 is an essay, "'Oh, Willie': An Unrecognized Anglo-American Ballad," which makes a case for this song's independence. Roud's list of versions doesn't correspond precisely with van Renwick's. And the suicide at the end means that fragmentary versions can hardly be classified; readers should surely check both.
Renwick considers the family to include not just this song and "The Butcher Boy" but also "Love Has Brought Me to Despair," plus lyric pieces he calls "Deep in Love" and "Died for Love," which are almost beyond classification; "Waly Waly" is probably one of them.
The description of this version is based mostly on Leach. Renwick, pp. 100-101, notes the usual differences between this song and "The Butcher Boy": This is told from the man's point of view, it usually opens with him describing himself as some sort of rambler, and it continues with the man's fate after the girl's suicide. Also, the father threatens Willie, and the mother generally does not make an appearance in this song. He also says on p. 107 that it oftan the woman, not the man, who was unfaithful. In broad summary, Renwick calls this a song of Family Opposition to Lovers, whereas "The Butcher Boy" is a song about an unfaithful lover. Thus, in theme, the two are quite different; it is the suicide that pulls them together.- RBW

Out of Roud's 19 listings for 18830 only one of them is actually barely related to "lover sent to sea, dies by cannonball". Of course it doesn't help that Roger deV. Renwick doesn't know the source ballads or Traditional Ballad Index (author RBW).

Rambling Boy is not part of 18830 and only the "Rambling Boy" is "Answer to Rambling Boy" which is a different ballad than all the rambling boy ballads.

So I don't know 3 of the broadsides but by the opening line-- it looks like Roud 18830 is not the same ballad Traditional Ballad Index (author RBW) refers to.

So I'm confused about what is what. Further, "Beam of Oak" should refer to the beam of oak which the maid uses to hag herself. But no- that has nothing to do with the title and also the "Isle of Cloy" is a mishearing of Auchnacloy, which is in Ireland.

There is an excellent version of "Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. That version is not even mentioned.

This may be Traditional Ballad Index's doing- but Roud 18830 makes no sense either.