Mudcat Café message #3195637 The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #139327   Message #3195637
Posted By: Teribus
26-Jul-11 - 06:36 AM
Thread Name: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
To answer the points raised in Mary's opening post:

1: "I am going to start digging into the logistics, distance, timings, resources etc...but for a gunman/woman near a nation's capital..that has just had its government building blown able to take down that many people...raises some concerns in my head."

You should have done that before breaking into print. At least looked at the location of the incidents on a map.

2: "They say it was after the Oslo explosion...and I will presume he was not physically there..but surely it would have immediately been on the radio."

It was.......He wasn't (at the site of the bomb).......Reports of the explosion were broadcast immediately. At this time (15:26hrs) they had no idea what had caused the explosion only that it had happened, it was massive and it was in the centre of the Government Office area of Oslo.

3: "Surely police would have been on highest alert."

WHY? At this time (15:26hrs) they had no idea what had caused the explosion only that it had happened, it was massive and it was in the centre of the Government Office area of Oslo. They responded to the explosion rapidly as did all emergency services. It was not until some time after that they knew it was a bomb, their first priority was to secure the area in order that those injured could be helped.

4: "If they did not carry weapons, but they must have them cached somewhere??I would think...they would be told to fetch their weapons in some sort of order."

ALL policemen in Norway are armed (9mm side arms & H&K MP-5)

5: "Everyone would be listening to the radio."

Yes no doubt they were. Nationally broadcast were two separate instructions:

Initially after the bomb went off in Oslo people were told to not use their mobile phones as it would overwhelm the network and hinder the work of the emergency services and hospitals who were frantically calling in people.

The second instruction came after people became aware of what was happening on the Island of Utøya that instruction was - Do Not Call people on the island they are trying to hide from the gunman and the ring tone will give away their positions (Obviously the youngsters from the island had called the police/home - remember on the face of it it was a policemen shooting at them - to call for help, This would have taken time)

6: "The minute the first shot rang out and the first staffer or kid was able to run to the woods the police would have been called."

As far as his victims were concerned it was a "policeman" doing the shooting, but I would have thought that in the circumstances (All attending the rally having been called together, then the shooting started) As soon as the first shot rang out, don't know about you Mary but I would be running like hell for cover - Not making bloody phone calls - That would come after I had outpaced my attacker and found a place to hide. But yes we can assume that calls were made, BUT not the instant the shooting started (first call to police received at 17:27hrs).

7: "If the news of the Oslo shooting was on the radio already, and you were in a camp nearby, would you not gather the campers, account for them, ..if for no other reason than some would have relatives...maybe it all happened almost simultaneously and I will be checking on that."

There was NO SHOOTING in Oslo - In Oslo a very large home made bomb had just gone off....You are in a camp on an island 60 kilometers away. As the Camp was a "political" event and Government Offices had just been destroyed by an explosion - no mention of a bomb yet - I dare say that people were gathered round attempting to find out what might have happened. A former Arbeiderpartiet Prime Minister of Norway Gro Harlem Bruntland has just left the Camp after having addressed the rally (She apparently was the gunman's real target on the Island) The next thing you know is that a "police officer" has arrived to brief everybody on the situation. He has presented himself to the officials on the shore and has been cleared to go over to the Island.

8: " you have a shooting, you have multiple phone have to get police out there. Of course theywill be focused on Oslo..but you still have citizens..parents..military..were there calls on the radio to get some boats close to the island? They said their swat helicopter was not on standby. It could be in for repairs or it could be on its way to the capital..who knows. There are other helicopters in Oslo..there was one taking photos of the shooting..can you not ask it to drop some swat people off..."

Of course they are focused on Oslo - 60 kilometers away, the nearest police presence would be in the small town of Hønefoss 30 kilometers away - it is Friday after work in the middle of the national holiday period I dare say that neither police, emergency services or hospitals were over-manned when all this kicked off. What boats? We know one tourist to the area recognised immediately the sound of automatic gunfire whilst listening to the radio and put two-and-two together and took his boat over to the island - he subsequently rescued about 30 of the youngsters - but this is not a heavily populated part of the country and it was in the middle of the holiday season and the weather was atrocious. SWAT Teams are not as common in Europe as they appear to be in the USA, neither is the automatic response to an incident to pour in masses of fire-power. As soon as it became evident what was happening on the Island both armed police (i.e. more heavily armed and protected than normal plus special forces were sent to the island) "Other helicopters taking photos of the shooting" Where did you get that from??? Certainly not on Norwegian Television - Ever heard of library footage?? Your helicopter is going to land most likely under fire on a heavily wooded island where Mary??

9: "There must have been boats on the island?"

Possibly, I dare say that there were - how do you get to them? There is only one landing jetty where those boats are secured and there is a man armed with an automatic rifle between you and the jetty, on which he has placed explosives to ambush any rescue party.

10: "Or was there a bridge?"

No bridge only a single landing stage. Controlled access to the island.

11: "Could some staff not have circled around and brought a boat to the other side?"

How would they have done that? Unlikely that "staff" would carry keys to boat engines around with them purely on spec that they might need them. The other side of the island is all cliff.

12: "It was close enough that some swam across."

Closest point from Island to shore is 500 metres in ice cold fresh water with strong currents - to many, hitting the water would not be an option.

13: "What was camp security like?"

Private/Volunteer and in Norway they would be unarmed, but there again why should they be, access to the Island was controlled on the shore and the gathering is an assembly of like-minded young people - trouble would the last thing you would expect to have to deal with. The current Crown Princess's step-brother, a policeman on vacation, was a member of the unarmed security detail on the Island and he was killed trying to tackle the gunman.

14: "Were they aware of the explosion in Oslo?"

Undoubtedly aware of an explosion, they might even by this stage have known it was a bomb

15: "What was the police force on or near the island?"

At least one off-duty policeman on the island in civilian clothes whose son was attending the rally, nearest police station would be in Hønefoss a small town about 30-40km away. The island is private property and is non residential.

16: "There have got to be some sort of explanations for why a gunman shot for one and a half hours and was not taken down."

The Island is small owned by the Worker's Youth League so no permanent residents. The gunman set his bomb in Oslo (mechanical timer most likely) walked to where he had parked his second vehicle (Silver coloured van) and drove to the landing stage on the shore of the lake - So park bomb, set timer, it's in the middle of the city so the time he parked to the time it went off could not be long, other wise the van containing the bomb may be towed. Bomb went off 15:26 say Breivik left Oslo at 15:00hrs it would take him about 20 minutes from Oslo to Sandvika, then about 45 minutes to the landing stage. He was delayed because he missed his main target on the Island. It is about 16:10hrs when he gets to the landing stage he has to change inside the van and arrive at the control point to get access to the Island so by the time he is on the Island it would be around 16:45hrs. He had to walk up to the camp site and get the youngsters assembled before he could start shooting:

"At 17:27 the local police district learned about the shooting, and two minutes later the police in Oslo were informed. By 17:38, the Norwegian central anti-terrorist unit Beredskapstroppen was dispatched to Utøya from their headquarters in Oslo. However special forces in Oslo did not have an operative helicopter available that could take them straight to the island. The only helicopter available to the Oslo-based unit was a military one parked 60 km south of the capital at Moss Airport in Rygge, and thus the special unit had to reach the location by cars. They reached the ferry crossing at 18:09, but had to wait a few minutes for a boat to take them across. They reached Utøya at 18:25. Within two minutes of police arriving the gunman surrendered."

Taking ALL factors into account the response time was fast.

Had this rally been held anywhere in rural Norway actually on the mainland or on a larger inhabited island I would have given the "gunman" about 15 maybe 20 minutes before someone would have shot him:

- Norway has a large number of registered hunters whose hunt Elg (Moose) and Red Deer, each year they have to pass a shooting test before they can hunt.

- Norway has conscription to its armed forces so there are lots of people who know how to handle guns and shoot.

- Norway has a national "Home Guard" who have to keep their weapons and ammunition at home.

No shortage of guns, no shortage of people who know how to use them - BUT not in the Utøya area.

This monster planned this attack very carefully. A "singleton" impossible to predict, hard if not impossible to detect as there will be no security leak from "his" side.

Possible recommended changes - Facebook entries - checked before they put out on the site - Oh wait a minute that would contravene US freedom of speech - can't have that now can we.